Originally posted by Tassman
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Atheistic morality: Is harm to animals on a continuum with harm to humans?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYour message got lost in your words.
I'll keep it to "I'll work on brevity"
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK, I still think that analogy sucked, cause it could EASILY be resolved, whereas the question of climate change cannot. But, I'll accept... um... your effort.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostCarpe, I'm an old fart, I could DIE reading through your stuff to find the point! Life is SHORT! I am VERY thankful that there are more patient people on the planet like Ox.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK, cool. So, to your question about (paraphrasing) who's asking for big bucks..... This is the kind of stuff - actually said by the climate alarmists themselves - that reveals their motives.
Now, if you can demonstrate that this is hype, or that they were misquoted or misrepresented....
His basic point was that, unlike efforts to close the Ozone hole or handle Amazon deforestation, we are now talking about policy changes that will have direct economic impact on countries by re-valuing their natural resources. Since he is of German background, I suspect he had no clue that the words "wealth redistribution" would strike a pain point in the U.S. right. One place to find his comments is here. You can also find his own words and positions here.
Then I looked up Investor's Business Daily, and find they have a ranking of between right and right-center on several evaluation platforms, and an accuracy reputation of "mixed," which puts them approximately on par with CNN, though not quite as far right as CNN is left.
-FWIWThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostI got used to it a long time ago. When it's pertinent to the discussion, I'll correct people about my political beliefs. When it isn't, what they assume I am doesn't matter.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThis is the first time I've heard of this, so I tried to find sources for the quotes attributed to Ottmar Edenhoffer. I immediately hit a lot of right-wing sites that made claims like the ones above. It took a while to dig to his original comments in context. It appears that many of his comments were lifted out of context, and then rearranged to create the narrative above. As best I can tell, Edenhoffer never said it was a GOAL of climate activism to redistribute wealth. He was saying that acting on today's climate science, which implies shutting down the fossil fuels industry and replacing it with renewables, will have the effect of "redistributing wealth." His point was that this would effectively change the value of natural resources. Coal and oil, currently very valuable, would become valueless. That means countries rich in coal and oil and dependent on that wealth would suddenly have a worthless asset. Meanwhile, countries with the natural resources needed to build wind turbines, solar panels, etc., would suddenly have resources whose value is increasing. He was pointing out that this inevitable wealth "redistribution" would be a cause for resistance by oil/coal-rich countries and acceptance/enthusiasm by countries with the desired resources.
His basic point was that, unlike efforts to close the Ozone hole or handle Amazon deforestation, we are now talking about policy changes that will have direct economic impact on countries by re-valuing their natural resources. Since he is of German background, I suspect he had no clue that the words "wealth redistribution" would strike a pain point in the U.S. right. One place to find his comments is here. You can also find his own words and positions here.
Then I looked up Investor's Business Daily, and find they have a ranking of between right and right-center on several evaluation platforms, and an accuracy reputation of "mixed," which puts them approximately on par with CNN, though not quite as far right as CNN is left.
-FWIW
Second, I don't think it's any secret that IBD is more conservative - but that doesn't change what was actually said.
As far as context, I'll go back and look st this again, but you don't seem to be denying there's a real "redistributing wealth" component to this.
This is worth further study for me.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostFirst of all, thank you for doing Tassman's leg work for him.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSecond, I don't think it's any secret that IBD is more conservative - but that doesn't change what was actually said.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAs far as context, I'll go back and look st this again, but you don't seem to be denying there's a real "redistributing wealth" component to this.
This is worth further study for me.
Statement A: We are advocating for climate change legislation for the purpose of redistributing wealth between nations.
Statement B: As we address climate change, it will fundamentally impact wealth distribution by changing the value of natural resources.
The IBD article, and your post, suggested that Statement A was being made. When you go back to the source, it turns out Statement B is what was being said. Statement B seems pretty obvious to me. If coal/oil cease being used as fuel sources, countries with an abundance of them will suddenly find themselves with a lot less wealth.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYeah - pretty much the same here. Only I've pretty much given up on correcting people about my political beliefs. They don't believe me anyway.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostEvidence always tends to trump claims.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI rest my case...Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostOne "believes", in this instance, because of the considerable evidence which is available from the "authority" to which I'm appealing.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostIf you actually know what the evidence is and how the scientific community argues from that evidence to its conclusion, then you should be appealing to the evidence, not the consensus within that community. When a climate change denier asks "What evidence?" you should be able to tell them everything they need to know. Until you can do that, your argument from authority counts for no more than an apologist's appeal to a consensus among conservative New Testament scholars that the gospels are reliable historical documents.
https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories...heclimate.html
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAmazingly enough - yes - cow farts are a fairly major source of greenhouse gases. And as our hunger for meat increases, we make the problem worse.
One would think, however, that our decimation of the buffalo herds would have countered that, at least to some degree. I wonder how modern cow herds compare with the buffalo herds pre 20th century?
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostSome current trends will contribute to a solution to the problem, if there is a problem. That does not justify ignoring people who say the current trends are insufficient to prevent a catastrophe.
We actually probably wouldn't be in as bad a mess if the liberals hadn't went on a campaign to give nuclear power a bad reputation.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOh for pity's sake, CP. You're not dense. The analogy was about asking someone who does not have access to the necessary information to answer a question. "How much more money" is not a question anyone can answer because they lack the necessary information. That was the point. Going around and around on whether it was a useful analogy is pointless.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSeems like you don't like it when people attack your analogy instead of "getting" the point you were trying to make with it. Hmm?
The trinity analogy simply failed because it was comparing apples to oranges. On the one hand is a claim that three distinct things can be simultaneously one thing. On the other hand was three (or more) translations of an original document being claimed to be one thing. They weren't. They are three (or more) translations with equal authority because they have been authenticated to accurately reflect the original.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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