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Atheistic morality: Is harm to animals on a continuum with harm to humans?

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Your memory is that short? You don't recall the posts where oxmix laid out his analogy in painstaking detail comparing a homosexual couple asking for a gay wedding cake and a white guy asking a black baker for a White supremacy rally cake? He had point by point equivalencies laid out like a formula. .
    It’s a false equivalence ethically.

    Homosexuals simply demand their civil rights as equal citizens, such as ordering a wedding cake like any other couple preparing to marry. OTOH white supremacists focus on the alleged inferiority of nonwhite Protestants and Jews and forcefully advocate overturning the implementation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. This, to the extent in the analogy, of demanding a black baker provide a cake decorated with anti-black, anti civil rights hate speech. The same lack of ethics would apply to white supremacists demanding a Jewish baker to supply a cake with the message "Jews Will Not Replace Us", as per their despicable Charlottesville rally.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • This thread seems to have been completely derailed after the first few tens of posts (maybe it got redirected after post 60, but it wasn't looking promising, so I skip'd a lot of the thread), but I'd argue that doing harm to entities is immoral largely but not entirely in proportion to the extent they possess minds. I think other things such as potential future development of an entity, how well the animals relate to each other and humans, and for nonhuman animals, how much utility we can extract from their products also play a role, as does the impact of any killings on the greater ecosystem. I've heard pigs are pretty smart, but all else being equal, I'd rather kill a pig than a dog. Some animals may be as intelligent as a human infant or young child, but I'd rather the animal die than the human.
      Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

      "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

      "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

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      • Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
        This thread seems to have been completely derailed after the first few tens of posts (maybe it got redirected after post 60, but it wasn't looking promising, so I skip'd a lot of the thread), but I'd argue that doing harm to entities is immoral largely but not entirely in proportion to the extent they possess minds. I think other things such as potential future development of an entity, how well the animals relate to each other and humans, and for nonhuman animals, how much utility we can extract from their products also play a role, as does the impact of any killings on the greater ecosystem. I've heard pigs are pretty smart, but all else being equal, I'd rather kill a pig than a dog. Some animals may be as intelligent as a human infant or young child, but I'd rather the animal die than the human.
        Ultimately, I think the principal that applies is to avoid unnecessary or indiscriminate pain/harm. I do not watch the pavement for every step to ensure I do not step on an ant. I accept that I need to kill to live - even if I am a vegan. I do believe that killing sentient beings takes it to a new level, so as we uncover evidence of sentience, we should be less prone to killing that species.

        As for pigs and dogs - that is a matter of familiarity. We humans do not tend to like to kill/eat our pets. Since dogs are common pets in the U.S., we shy away from killing/eating them. Other countries where they are less likely to be pets, they are more likely to be a food source.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          You appear to be conflating two discussions. One was about the baker/cake (the one you refer to here). I pointed out exactly where that formula failed and why, but it took a while for Jim to see it (if he did).

          The equation/point discussion I was referring to was the one about his 90% homosexuality and 5,000 people left within X years. That was the claim he was making for which I was looking for an equation and he provided none. Nor did he ever really get to the point of the argument, and it appears he is not going to.
          Dang, you can't remember what example I was referring to and then you blame me for it?

          Excuse me, but we were discussing which example I was referring to in my previous comment to you about your hypocrisy. If anyone is conflating anything it is you. I know exactly what I was referring to and I explained it to you patiently. If you are still confused, then that is your problem.

          The bit about the 90% homosexuality was just another time you were picking apart an analogy of his. Thanks for reminding me.

          He made his point over and over, and you either were too stuck in your own biases to even see it, or it was another one of your Dodge#1's

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          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Dang, you can't remember what example I was referring to and then you blame me for it?

            Excuse me, but we were discussing which example I was referring to in my previous comment to you about your hypocrisy. If anyone is conflating anything it is you. I know exactly what I was referring to and I explained it to you patiently. If you are still confused, then that is your problem.

            The bit about the 90% homosexuality was just another time you were picking apart an analogy of his. Thanks for reminding me.

            He made his point over and over, and you either were too stuck in your own biases to even see it, or it was another one of your Dodge#1's
            Acknowledging I have read your post.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Acknowledging I have read your post.
              Acknowledging your dodge.

              Comment

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