Atheistic morality: Is harm to animals on a continuum with harm to humans?

[Cow Poke]

One cannot be a good steward of the planet if one ignores the warnings of ninety-seven percent of climate scientists,

You're just flat out wrong on this. In fact, this is a steaming pile of horsiepoo.

who agree that climate-change trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities. Especially when the USA has a president who has signed an order at the EPA to dismantle environmental protections.

I think you're letting your hatred for Trump make you act just like him - you're spewing forth false crap.

[KingsGambit]

Question for Tassman: Who is a better steward of the environment? A factory worker who doesn't believe in global warming but whose family recycles and composts... or a billionaire who spends a lot of time complaining about global warming, but flies a private jet around the world on a weekly basis?

[Cow Poke]

Question for Tassman: Who is a better steward of the environment? A factory worker who doesn't believe in global warming but whose family recycles and composts... or a billionaire who spends a lot of time complaining about global warming, but flies a private jet around the world on a weekly basis?

The very example I had in mind, and have pointed out that billionaire's hypocrisy numerous times.

[One Bad Pig]

Pretty much, yeah. (that 'river' part may be a bit esoteric, but I'll accept that in the same sense that "we're only here for a season", and we have choices in how to add to and/or take away from the resources of the planet)

And now, I'll burst into one of my favorite silly church songs...

I've got a six-inch knife stickin' out of me
cuts through all my veins and my arteries
cuts my bladder open, sets my urine free
I've got a six-inch knife stickin' out of me

Spring up, O bowels - out of the hole
spring up, O bowels - out of control
spring up, O bowels - abundantly
'cause that knife sticks out of me.

[Cow Poke]

I've got a six-inch knife stickin' out of me
cuts through all my veins and my arteries
cuts my bladder open, sets my urine free
I've got a six-inch knife stickin' out of me

Spring up, O bowels - out of the hole
spring up, O bowels - out of control
spring up, O bowels - abundantly
'cause that knife sticks out of me.

How can I be this old and never have heard that?

I may now die in peace.

[Tassman]

You're just flat out wrong on this. In fact, this is a steaming pile of horsiepoo.

You’re in denial. “Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities, and most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position.”

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

I think you're letting your hatred for Trump make you act just like him - you're spewing forth false crap.

Nope. “The mandate of the head of the Environmental Protection Agency is to protect human health and enforce environmental regulations. Yet when he reflected on his first year in office in a recent report, EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt celebrated the rollback of 22 regulations under his watch, and cheered President Donald Trump’s rejection of climate science and policy”.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envir...or-regulations

[Cow Poke]

You’re in denial. “Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities, and most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position.”

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

So WHAT? Let's say that's 100% true. That doesn't mean that not knowing that prevents somebody from "doing the right thing" just because it's the right thing to do! That has been your goofy major logic fail.

Nope. “The mandate of the head of the Environmental Protection Agency is to protect human health and enforce environmental regulations. Yet when he reflected on his first year in office in a recent report, EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt celebrated the rollback of 22 regulations under his watch, and cheered President Donald Trump’s rejection of climate science and policy”.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envir...or-regulations

You're just flat out wrong. People have been environmentalists LONG before climate alarmism.

[Cow Poke]

Question for Tassman: Who is a better steward of the environment? A factory worker who doesn't believe in global warming but whose family recycles and composts... or a billionaire who spends a lot of time complaining about global warming, but flies a private jet around the world on a weekly basis?

I double dare you, Tassman, to give a proper response to KG...

Question for Tassman: Who is a better steward of the environment? A factory worker who doesn't believe in global warming but whose family recycles and composts... or a billionaire who spends a lot of time complaining about global warming, but flies a private jet around the world on a weekly basis?

[rogue06]

I double dare you, Tassman, to give a proper response to KG...

Question for Tassman: Who is a better steward of the environment? A factory worker who doesn't believe in global warming but whose family recycles and composts... or a billionaire who spends a lot of time complaining about global warming, but flies a private jet around the world on a weekly basis?

And just so Tass or anyone else can not pretend that this is a scenario that is purely hypothetical and not reflected in real life, from a recent post:

That appears to be the case, at least on the individual basis according to a new study.

Source: Climate skeptics more eco-friendly than global-warming alarmists: study

Skeptics more likely to recycle, ride bus than those ‘highly concerned’ about climate

Al Gore has been accused of hypocrisy for talking the talk on climate change despite burning through fossil fuels at a rapid clip, but it turns out he’s not alone.

A study by Cornell and the University of Michigan researchers found that those “highly concerned” about climate change were less likely to engage in recycling and other eco-friendly behaviors than global-warming skeptics.

Published in the April edition of the Journal of Environmental Psychology, the one-year study broke 600 participants into three groups based on their level of concern about climate change: “highly concerned,” “cautiously worried,” and “skeptical.”

The “highly concerned” cluster was “most supportive of government climate policies, but least likely to report individual-level actions, whereas the ‘Skeptical’ opposed policy solutions but were most likely to report engaging in individual-level pro-environmental behaviors,” the researchers concluded.

Conducting the study, entitled “Believing in climate change but not behaving sustainably,” were Cornell assistant professor Neil A. Lewis Jr. and University of Michigan researchers Michael P. Hall and Phoebe C. Ellsworth.

The skeptics were the more likely than the “highly concerned” to recycle, use public transportation and reusable shopping bags, and buy eco-friendly products.

“Belief in climate change predicted support for government policies to combat climate change, but did not generally translate to individual-level, self-reported pro-environmental behavior,” said the paper.

Why? Even the researchers were stumped, although it’s possible that skeptics may place more emphasis on personal responsibility than government action...



Source

© Copyright Original Source

A bit of searching turned up the paper (or at least the Abstract from it):

Source: Believing in climate change, but not behaving sustainably: Evidence from a one-year longitudinal study

Abstract

We conducted a one-year longitudinal study in which 600 American adults regularly reported their climate change beliefs, pro-environmental behavior, and other climate-change related measures. Using latent class analyses, we uncovered three clusters of Americans with distinct climate belief trajectories: (1) the “Skeptical,” who believed least in climate change; (2) the “Cautiously Worried,” who had moderate beliefs in climate change; and (3) the “Highly Concerned,” who had the strongest beliefs and concern about climate change. Cluster membership predicted different outcomes: the “Highly Concerned” were most supportive of government climate policies, but least likely to report individual-level actions, whereas the “Skeptical” opposed policy solutions but were most likely to report engaging in individual-level pro-environmental behaviors. Implications for theory and practice are discussed.


Source

© Copyright Original Source

[Tassman]

I double dare you, Tassman, to give a proper response to KG...

Question for Tassman: Who is a better steward of the environment? A factory worker who doesn't believe in global warming but whose family recycles and composts... or a billionaire who spends a lot of time complaining about global warming, but flies a private jet around the world on a weekly basis?

The “billionaire who spends a lot of time complaining about global warming” may be setting a poor example and the family that recycles and composts (including mine) sets a good example. But the real damage is being done on a massively larger scale. This is what the vast majority of scientists are warning about. And this is what Trump is deliberately ignoring in his dismantling of the EPA under the odious Scott Pruitt, and his unilateral withdrawal from the Paris Agreement.

[Cow Poke]

The “billionaire who spends a lot of time complaining about global warming” may be setting a poor example and the family that recycles and composts (including mine) sets a good example. But the real damage is being done on a massively larger scale. This is what the vast majority of scientists are warning about. And this is what Trump is deliberately ignoring in his dismantling of the EPA under the odious Scott Pruitt, and his unilateral withdrawal from the Paris Agreement.

Tassman, you're not stupid, but frequently you get so focused on whatever point you're trying to make that you get something entirely wrong, then just absolutely double down on it . You did this in the Harvey Weinberger thread where you accused that poor gay man of being a NAMBLA supporter, when I was providing citations that showed quite the opposite.

You are so fixated on forcing people to agree with your beliefs on climate change that you totally miss that it's possible for a person to be a good steward of the earth while knowing nothing about climate science at all.

Take a deep breath - THINK - a farmer or rancher (who rely on the earth for their living) can be excellent stewards of the earth without ever having heard of climate science.

[Tassman]

You are so fixated on forcing people to agree with your beliefs on climate change that you totally miss that it's possible for a person to be a good steward of the earth while knowing nothing about climate science at all.

Take a deep breath - THINK - a farmer or rancher (who rely on the earth for their living) can be excellent stewards of the earth without ever having heard of climate science.

Simplistic to the point of dishonesty!

I have not denied that country folk can be excellent stewards of the earth...as far as they can go. The point is that this is not sufficient, e.g. their “good stewardship” has no effect upon the levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

“The heat-trapping nature of carbon dioxide and other gases was demonstrated in the mid-19th century. 2 Their ability to affect the transfer of infrared energy through the atmosphere is the scientific basis of many instruments flown by NASA. There is no question that increased levels of greenhouse gases must cause the Earth to warm in response.”

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

“Ice cores drawn from Greenland, Antarctica, and tropical mountain glaciers show that the Earth’s climate responds to changes in greenhouse gas levels. Ancient evidence can also be found in tree rings, ocean sediments, coral reefs, and layers of sedimentary rocks. This ancient, or paleoclimate, evidence reveals that current warming is occurring roughly ten times faster than the average rate of ice-age-recovery warming. The evidence for rapid climate change is compelling.” Ibid.

Yet, despite the accumulated evidence, which is not doubted by the vast majority of scientists, Trump is dismantling the EPA, withdrawn from the Paris Agreement and reopening the coal mines. And the irresponsible response we get from some Evangelicals is that it doesn't matter because the "end times are upon us".

[Cow Poke]

Simplistic to the point of dishonesty!

Tassman, can you PLEASE stop with these goofy false accusations of dishonesty?

I have not denied that country folk can be excellent stewards of the earth...

You certainly didn't EXCLUDE "country folk" from your goofy false accusation!

as far as they can go.

And, now, in a weak attempt to kabuki dance your way out out of your false statement, you add "as far as they go".

Here is your original statement, Tassman....

One cannot be a good steward of the planet if one ignores the warnings of ninety-seven percent of climate scientists, who agree that climate-change trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities. Especially when the USA has a president who has signed an order at the EPA to dismantle environmental protections.

There is NOTHING about excluding "country folk" or "as far as it goes", or anything like that. A person does NOT have to subscribe to, let alone be aware of, climate science to be a good steward of the earth.

You were wrong, you can't admit it, so you resort to your false accusations of "dishonsty!"

Why don't you just be a big boy for once and admit, "ok, I went too far".

You can't.

It's simply not in you.

[Cow Poke]

The point is that this is not sufficient, e.g. their “good stewardship” has no effect upon the levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

I'll deal with this separately.... A farmer or rancher being a good steward of the earth - because that's the right thing to do - does FAR less harm to the earth's atmosphere than your superhero Al Gore, your filthy rich televangelist of climate alarmism.

Al Gore's Climate Change Hypocrisy Is As Big As His Energy-Sucking Mansion

Inconvenient Truth: In a recent interview, Al Gore claimed that he lives a "carbon free lifestyle." The electricity bills for his home in Tennessee say otherwise.

CNN's Jake Tapper asked Gore to respond to charges that he's a climate hypocrite. "This is a criticism we hear from conservatives all the time when talking about people like you or Elon Musk or Leonardo DiCaprio," Tapper said, "that you, yourself, have a large carbon footprint."

Gore's response was "Well, I don't have a private jet. And what carbon emissions come from my trips on Southwest Airlines are offset. I live a carbon-free lifestyle, to the maximum extent possible."

The maximum extent possible? Really? Then how does Gore explain the rather large amounts of electricity he uses to power his 10,000-plus-square-foot home.

A new analysis by the National Center for Public Policy Research found that Gore's Tennessee home "guzzles more electricity in one year than the average American family uses in 21 years."

In one month last year, the report found, Gore's home consumed more electricity than the average family uses in 34 months.

The electricity used just to heat Gore's swimming pool would power six homes for a year.

And this is after Gore spent tens of thousands of dollars installing "green" upgrades, which he was embarrassed into doing when his energy-hogging home first came to light a decade ago.

In fact, according to the NCPPR report, Gore's home used more electricity last year than it did in 2007, before he installed all those energy-reducing features.

[rogue06]

I'll deal with this separately.... A farmer or rancher being a good steward of the earth - because that's the right thing to do - does FAR less harm to the earth's atmosphere than your superhero Al Gore, your filthy rich televangelist of climate alarmism.

Al Gore's Climate Change Hypocrisy Is As Big As His Energy-Sucking Mansion

Inconvenient Truth: In a recent interview, Al Gore claimed that he lives a "carbon free lifestyle." The electricity bills for his home in Tennessee say otherwise.

CNN's Jake Tapper asked Gore to respond to charges that he's a climate hypocrite. "This is a criticism we hear from conservatives all the time when talking about people like you or Elon Musk or Leonardo DiCaprio," Tapper said, "that you, yourself, have a large carbon footprint."

Gore's response was "Well, I don't have a private jet. And what carbon emissions come from my trips on Southwest Airlines are offset. I live a carbon-free lifestyle, to the maximum extent possible."

The maximum extent possible? Really? Then how does Gore explain the rather large amounts of electricity he uses to power his 10,000-plus-square-foot home.

A new analysis by the National Center for Public Policy Research found that Gore's Tennessee home "guzzles more electricity in one year than the average American family uses in 21 years."

In one month last year, the report found, Gore's home consumed more electricity than the average family uses in 34 months.

The electricity used just to heat Gore's swimming pool would power six homes for a year.

And this is after Gore spent tens of thousands of dollars installing "green" upgrades, which he was embarrassed into doing when his energy-hogging home first came to light a decade ago.

In fact, according to the NCPPR report, Gore's home used more electricity last year than it did in 2007, before he installed all those energy-reducing features.

From back on Squirrel Appreciation Day (only 243 days 15 hours and 30 minutes to go until the next one!):

Back in 2006 it was disclosed through an examination of public records that Gore's home and office racked up $30,000-a-year in utility bills devouring roughly 221,000 kilowatt hours -- or more than 20 times what the average 4 bedroom house in the same area uses (so yeah the "small town" reference was hyperbole). And FWIU using green energy sources doesn't cause you to consume more energy or cause a "significant uptick" so I'm not sure what you're getting at there^[1].

And it wasn't just the "right wing" complaining about Gore's energy consumption habits (which IIRC included using a jet to fly to a location that was only a 2 hour drive away). I think it was senior fellow at the Center for American Progress Eric Alterman who revealed that Gore was keeping his pool so warm that it actually consumed more energy than his 20-room house (not including 8 bathrooms).

At the time a spokesperson for Gore claimed the high consumption was due to the fact that he had bought an older home and was in the process of upgrading it but a check in 2016 found that he was consuming even more energy -- 230,889 kilowatt hours. And his pool was still using more electricity in 2 months than what the average American home did in an entire year, averaging 5513 kilowatt hours per month. That's more than 6 times what the average American uses for their entire home.

Gore is yet another "do as I say not as I do" hypocrite^[2] unlike Ed Begley Jr. who actually practices what he preaches (who lives in a LEED-platinum certified house, the highest environmental rating from the U.S. Green Building Council, which is solar-powered, has composting toilets and a huge rainwater tank for his fruit and vegetable garden. He's also driven electric cars exclusively since the early 70s).








1. If you want an example of a former top politician's home being environmental friendly that would be George W Bush's ranch in Crawford Texas which the Chicago Tribune described as being "a model of environmental rectitude" with geothermal heat pumps circulating water at a constant 67 degree temperature which heats the house in the winter and cools it in the summer thereby using about a quarter of the electricity that traditional heating and cooling systems utilize. It also filtered wastewater from showers, sinks and toilets and mixed it with collected rainwater for irrigation

2. Back during the energy crisis of the 1970s Richard Nixon asked Americans to forgo using Christmas lights to decorate their houses in order to conserve energy -- all the while having the air conditioners in the White House going so he could enjoy a continuous fire going in the fireplace.



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