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Atheistic morality: Is harm to animals on a continuum with harm to humans?

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  • Atheistic morality: Is harm to animals on a continuum with harm to humans?

    Elsewhere on this forum I wrote:
    [Harming another being is] wrong in proportion to its level of 'mind' - i.e. its sentience / cognition / conscious / comprehension / memory / self-awareness faculties. So rocks aren't on the scale because they don't have minds in any way shape or form, while plants / bacteria are at the absolute minimum of life on up through insects, fetuses, fish, mammals, and finally humans with fully functioning minds which have the maximum mind we have yet to encounter

    And in doing so I felt somewhat surprised this was something I really needed to explain. But on this forum I've noticed most Christians here treat humans as qualitatively different to animals when it comes to morality. They believe that because humans are made in the image of God / have immortal souls / will be resurrected in the afterlife / have been given different commands by God about action toward other humans as compared to action toward animals, that therefore human-human moral interactions aren't on a continuum with human-animal moral interactions but are rather completely different to them. As such, they believe things like killing a developing human fetus is utterly and completely different to killing a developing animal fetus even if the two have the same levels of brain function (or lack thereof).

    So, I'm wondering whether I'm right in simply assuming that all atheists here would share the same basic moral premises as myself that:
    1. Humans exist on a continuum with animals, having evolved from them,
    2. That what makes beings morally relevant is the extent to which they posses minds (let's avoid details here of whether by that we mean 'consciousness' or 'self-awareness' or 'possessing intention' or something else)
    3. That minds exist on a scale of not there at all through to human-level

    ...and thus share the belief that the moral differences between humans and animals are quantitative not qualitative.

    I am wondering, in particular, if Carpedm will come down on the side of affirming all those premises, or will argue that because in practice morality is a social construct created through a social contract that therefore animals cannot participate in it because they can't negotiate their part in any contract.

    Vote in the poll!
    9
    No, humans are totally different to and separate from animals in morality
    22.22%
    2
    Yes, doing harm to entities is immoral in proportion to the extent they posses minds
    33.33%
    3
    Yes, humans are on a continuum with animals in morality but it has nothing to do with minds
    11.11%
    1
    Other (please explain!)
    33.33%
    3
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

  • #2
    I think that any system that allows harm to be dealt out inversely proportionately to the amount or level of "mind" one possesses, is a system that would necessarily lead to the execution of human beings whose minds are less developed than a "normal" person's, or those with mental illness. Or, the ill treatment of animals that aren't as smart as other animals. Or about a million other horrific things.
    Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
      I think that any system that allows harm to be dealt out inversely proportionately to the amount or level of "mind" one possesses, is a system that would necessarily lead to the execution of human beings whose minds are less developed than a "normal" person's, or those with mental illness. Or, the ill treatment of animals that aren't as smart as other animals. Or about a million other horrific things.
      Viewing beings as being on a continuum doesn't make it right to ill-treat those lower on it!

      I think the alternative view of humans as completely different from animals leads to the horrific treatment of animals.

      But I want to see what other atheists here have to say.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Viewing beings as being on a continuum doesn't make it right to ill-treat those lower on it!

        I think the alternative view of humans as completely different from animals leads to the horrific treatment of animals.

        But I want to see what other atheists here have to say.
        "God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth and the small animals that scurry along the ground". Genesis 1:26

        While this passage doesn't actually mandate cruelty to animals it certainly does nothing to inhibit it. It's saying that God has made us the boss to do with the animals whatever we want, how we want to do it and I don't believe this to be the case. We have a duty to exhibit compassion to all creatures.
        Last edited by Tassman; 05-16-2018, 04:49 AM.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          "God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth and the small animals that scurry along the ground". Genesis 1:26

          While this passage doesn't actually mandate cruelty to animals it certainly does nothing to inhibit it. It's saying that God has made us the boss to do with the animals whatever we want.
          Agreed. Btw when I said I wanted to hear what other atheists here had to say, I was actually meaning the OP questions, not this tangent.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Agreed. Btw when I said I wanted to hear what other atheists here had to say, I was actually meaning the OP questions, not this tangent.
            They're related but I agree that the moral differences between humans and animals are quantitative not qualitative.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Vote in the poll!
              Can I fix the title first, please?
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                "God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth and the small animals that scurry along the ground". Genesis 1:26

                While this passage doesn't actually mandate cruelty to animals it certainly does nothing to inhibit it. It's saying that God has made us the boss to do with the animals whatever we want, how we want to do it and I don't believe this to be the case. We have a duty to exhibit compassion to all creatures.
                I think, technically, you are correct, but are failing to take in the overall concept (and a lot of Christians miss this) that we are STEWARDS of the planet, and have a responsibility to be good stewards.

                "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it." (Psalm 24:1)
                "To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it." (Deuteronomy 10:14)
                "The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants." (Leviticus 25:23)
                "Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me." (Job 41:11)

                I think Christians sometimes go too far in rebelling against the crazy wacko environmentalists who want to control everything from THEIR perspective, and don't appreciate the stewardship aspect of our stay on this planet.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I think, technically, you are correct, but are failing to take in the overall concept (and a lot of Christians miss this) that we are STEWARDS of the planet, and have a responsibility to be good stewards.

                  "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it." (Psalm 24:1)
                  "To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it." (Deuteronomy 10:14)
                  "The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants." (Leviticus 25:23)
                  "Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me." (Job 41:11)

                  I think Christians sometimes go too far in rebelling against the crazy wacko environmentalists who want to control everything from THEIR perspective, and don't appreciate the stewardship aspect of our stay on this planet.
                  What CP said.

                  I picked "Yes, humans are on a continuum with animals in morality but it has nothing to do with minds"

                  It is immoral to be cruel to animals, but because WE are moral beings and should know better, we should value life and take care of what God entrusted to us, not abuse it. Sure we can raise animals as food and it is not immoral to eat them, but we should not mistreat them, or take pleasure in harming them. We should appreciate what they are giving us. And yes, I do think intelligence does have some bearing on the matter. But that is not the determining factor on how we treat animals or whether it is moral or immoral.

                  I was not quite sure what SL meant by "humans are on a continuum with animals in morality" - But I take it as "Is it immoral for humans to kill or mistreat animals?" and I think the continuum would be depending on how we treat the animals and for what reason we kill them or protect them. If SL meant something else, like "do animals have morality" then I would disagree. Animals are amoral creatures.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Can I fix the title first, please?
                    Well I wanted to see the responses from atheists, but I stuffed up the poll settings so I couldn't see the names of the people that voted.

                    So if you can fix it so we can see the names, then you can also change the thread title to remove the word atheists, and then everyone can vote...
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      I was not quite sure what SL meant by "humans are on a continuum with animals in morality" - But I take it as "Is it immoral for humans to kill or mistreat animals?" and I think the continuum would be depending on how we treat the animals and for what reason we kill them or protect them. If SL meant something else, like "do animals have morality" then I would disagree. Animals are amoral creatures.
                      Your first interpretation of my words is correct.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I lean toward "to the extent they possess minds". Everybody (I hope) agrees that it is wrong to unnecessarily inflict pain upon animals. I think it's reasonable to take more care around animals with high capacity for pain, and this has implications for how they might be killed, say, for food. This means it's not necessary to do what some Jains do, and wear masks around to avoid accidentally inhaling insects. It also means we don't need to avoid mowing the lawn in case we accidentally run over an anthill.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I think, technically, you are correct, but are failing to take in the overall concept (and a lot of Christians miss this) that we are STEWARDS of the planet, and have a responsibility to be good stewards.

                          "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it." (Psalm 24:1)
                          "To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it." (Deuteronomy 10:14)
                          "The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants." (Leviticus 25:23)
                          "Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me." (Job 41:11)

                          I think Christians sometimes go too far in rebelling against the crazy wacko environmentalists who want to control everything from THEIR perspective, and don't appreciate the stewardship aspect of our stay on this planet.
                          I agree with the ethical duty for "good stewardship" of the planet and care for it's creatures. But this doesn't exactly square with the denial by many Evangelicals of the unequivocal scientific evidence of climate change, due to human activities
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            I agree with the ethical duty for "good stewardship" of the planet and care for it's creatures. But this doesn't exactly square with the denial by many Evangelicals of the unequivocal scientific evidence of climate change, due to human activities
                            Those of us who are being good stewards of the earth are doing a whole lot more for the environment than the environmental alarmists.


                            Study: Climate Skeptics More ‘Eco Friendly’ than Alarmists


                            The results of the study contradicted the intuitive assumption that people most concerned about climate change would be the most likely to engage in eco-friendly behavior, revealing instead that the contrary is true. There is an inverse correlation between climate-change concern and environmentally beneficial action.

                            While very supportive of government action on climate, the group of “highly concerned” were the least likely to behave in environmentally friendly ways on a personal level, the study revealed.

                            The self-described “skeptics,” on the other hand, while the most opposed to government climate policies, were also the “most likely to report engaging in individual-level pro-environmental behaviors,” the study found.


                            I don't just preach environmental responsibility - I live it.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              One could be unconvinced of the evidence of global warming and personally exhibit good stewardship
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment

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