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Atheistic morality: Is harm to animals on a continuum with harm to humans?

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  • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    Did I say I was a liberal? I don't consider myself one.
    I didn't know, so I asked.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      No, I did NOT miss that part of the post, or I wouldn't have said... "because the homeowner knows what they want to paint, and even if it takes a trip home to measure it, it's an easily accomplished deal".
      Oh for pity's sake, CP. You're not dense. The analogy was about asking someone who does not have access to the necessary information to answer a question. "How much more money" is not a question anyone can answer because they lack the necessary information. That was the point. Going around and around on whether it was a useful analogy is pointless.

      And the rest of my post was clearly a waste of my time. You're not exactly leaving the impression that you have any interest in having an actual conversation about the issue. I think I'll leave this one to you. If you have a serious question or some serious observations, I'll respond.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Sure, but it doesn't even approach answering the quesiton.

        And you would be wrong - I just want REAL answers, not "well thought out empty ones".
        So those were my "real" answers - thought through, explored, and based on what we DO know. That you don't accept them as such is not my concern.

        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        I don't know why it's so difficult for so many smart people to admit "I really don't know".
        When I don't know, I say "I don't know," (as I did for your first question). When I think I have viable answers/approaches, I lay them out for people to explore and respond to. If/when you decide you want to, you know where to find me.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
          Did I say I was a liberal? I don't consider myself one.
          History suggests that won't matter a great deal here. If you have any positions that lean left or are left, you're automatically "a liberal." Might as well get used to it.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Oh for pity's sake, CP. You're not dense. The analogy was about asking someone who does not have access to the necessary information to answer a question. "How much more money" is not a question anyone can answer because they lack the necessary information. That was the point. Going around and around on whether it was a useful analogy is pointless.
            And my point is that this is FAR MORE troublesome than any hardware store analogy you can offer.

            You reject any and all efforts to explain the Trinity, but you come up with a really weak one to try to explain another big mystery to which we "lack the necessary information".

            The Climate Alarmists are pushing for big bucks and big government - I have a right to know what that's going to accomplish.

            And the rest of my post was clearly a waste of my time. You're not exactly leaving the impression that you have any interest in having an actual conversation about the issue. I think I'll leave this one to you. If you have a serious question or some serious observations, I'll respond.
            Oh, for pity sake, Carpe, quit being such a fartlicker!

            I just get really tired of people like Tassman endlessly screaming about climate change without a CLUE what to actually do about it. Then going on to stupidly charge that you don't care about your children if you don't care as much as he does about the drama.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              History suggests that won't matter a great deal here. If you have any positions that lean left or are left, you're automatically "a liberal." Might as well get used to it.
              I don't really know Doug that well, so I asked. He answered. I have no reason to think otherwise.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                And my point is that this is FAR MORE troublesome than any hardware store analogy you can offer.

                You reject any and all efforts to explain the Trinity, but you come up with a really weak one to try to explain another big mystery to which we "lack the necessary information".
                It is very hard (impossible?) to come up with a viable analogy to explain a concept that is self-contradictory. It's not that hard to come up with an analogy for someone being asked to answer a question they do not have adequate facts to answer.

                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                The Climate Alarmists are pushing for big bucks and big government - I have a right to know what that's going to accomplish.
                Let's focus on the last claim. Can you document where "climate alarmists" have asked for "big bucks" and "big government?"

                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Oh, for pity sake, Carpe, quit being such a fartlicker!

                I just get really tired of people like Tassman endlessly screaming about climate change without a CLUE what to actually do about it. Then going on to stupidly charge that you don't care about your children if you don't care as much as he does about the drama.
                Fartlicker?

                You having a bad day?

                Anyway, let me know when you're serious. Happy to have a discussion with you then. Until then, I gave you my best responses. Happy to discuss them at any time.

                P.S. I'm not Tassman...
                Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-26-2018, 11:40 AM.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Let's focus on the last claim. Can you document where "climate alarmists" have asked for "big bucks" and "big government?"
                  Grandkids are over for the pool - I'll get back to you.

                  Fartlicker?

                  You having a bad day?
                  No, I'm having a GREAT day. That was the most juvenile insult I could think of on short notice to mock your "oh, for pity sake".

                  Anyway, let me know when you're serious. Happy to have a discussion with you then. Until then, I gave you my best responses. Happy to discuss them at any time.

                  P.S. I'm not Tassman...
                  You kinda injected yourself into the discussion - I thought you were volunteering to be his spokesperson.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Grandkids are over for the pool - I'll get back to you.
                    Grandkids come first...

                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    No, I'm having a GREAT day. That was the most juvenile insult I could think of on short notice to mock your "oh, for pity sake".
                    Ahhh... I wasn't expecting juvenile... I'll make a note

                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    You kinda injected yourself into the discussion - I thought you were volunteering to be his spokesperson.
                    I saw a post in a public forum with questions I found interesting. I answered. I kind of assume "private discussions" are done in private. And, whatever you may think, my response was actually based on research and reason. Happy to discuss at any point that you aren't just busily hand-waving them away.

                    And I am never anyone's spokesperson but myself...
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      It is very hard (impossible?) to come up with a viable analogy to explain a concept that is self-contradictory. It's not that hard to come up with an analogy for someone being asked to answer a question they do not have adequate facts to answer.
                      In which case, it's often best just to be honest and say "I really don't know".

                      Carpe, I love you to death, but you're the kind of guy who, when asked what time it is, tends to launch into the history of watchmaking and insists on offering a tour of the factory.

                      And, yes, you certainly have a right to "inject yourself" into the discussion I was having with Tassman, but my frustration is that people like Tassman are, IMOHBAO, one of the very reasons there are skeptics (and even deniers) like me! He gets himself all worked up in a frenzy, makes downright GOOFY untrue statements, and makes you want to recoil just from the stupidity.

                      He's like a junior Al Gore hyping the alarmism, with all kinds of failed prophecies, and we're supposed to buy into his drama. (Except, of course, Tassman isn't smart enough to get filthy rich enough making money off of climate alarmism)
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        In which case, it's often best just to be honest and say "I really don't know".
                        And if you go back to my post... that's what I said. I simply pointed out that the question cannot be answered because the facts required to answer it are not available, and provided an analogy to highlight that.

                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Carpe, I love you to death, but you're the kind of guy who, when asked what time it is, tends to launch into the history of watchmaking and insists on offering a tour of the factory.
                        On that I plead guilty. Occupational hazard. I wish I could say I was successfully working on it...but I'm verbose. Shoot me.

                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        And, yes, you certainly have a right to "inject yourself" into the discussion I was having with Tassman, but my frustration is that people like Tassman are, IMOHBAO, one of the very reasons there are skeptics (and even deniers) like me! He gets himself all worked up in a frenzy, makes downright GOOFY untrue statements, and makes you want to recoil just from the stupidity.

                        He's like a junior Al Gore hyping the alarmism, with all kinds of failed prophecies, and we're supposed to buy into his drama. (Except, of course, Tassman isn't smart enough to get filthy rich enough making money off of climate alarmism)
                        And I repeat...I'm not Tassman. I stand by my reasoned responses/suggestions, which are actually rooted in some amount of research and due diligence. Whether or not you wish to seriously examine/discuss them or not is entirely up to you. I put them forward in response to your questions, which I assumed were serious ones.

                        P.S. You might also note that my response to your four questions was in response to a post you made in direct response to me...so if you didn't want my answer...why did you ask?
                        Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-26-2018, 02:59 PM.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          And if you go back to my post... that's what I said.
                          Your message got lost in your words.

                          I simply pointed out that the question cannot be answered because the facts required to answer it are not available, and provided an analogy to highlight that.
                          OK, I still think that analogy sucked, cause it could EASILY be resolved, whereas the question of climate change cannot. But, I'll accept... um... your effort.

                          On that I plead guilty. Occupational hazard. I wish I could say I was successfully working on it...but I'm verbose. Shoot me.
                          Carpe, I'm an old fart, I could DIE reading through your stuff to find the point! Life is SHORT! I am VERY thankful that there are more patient people on the planet like Ox.

                          And I repeat...I'm not Tassman. I stand by my reasoned responses/suggestions, which are actually rooted in some amount of research and due diligence. Whether or not you wish to seriously examine them or not is entirely up to you.
                          OK, cool. So, to your question about (paraphrasing) who's asking for big bucks..... This is the kind of stuff - actually said by the climate alarmists themselves - that reveals their motives.

                          Source: Investors Business Daily

                          We have been told now for almost three decades that man has to change his ways or his fossil-fuel emissions will scorch Earth with catastrophic warming. Scientists, politicians and activists have maintained the narrative that their concern is only about caring for our planet and its inhabitants. But this is simply not true. The narrative is a ruse. They are after something entirely different.

                          If they were honest, the climate alarmists would admit that they are not working feverishly to hold down global temperatures -- they would acknowledge that they are instead consumed with the goal of holding down capitalism and establishing a global welfare state.

                          Have doubts? Then listen to the words of former United Nations climate official Ottmar Edenhofer:

                          "One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with the environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole," said Edenhofer, who co-chaired the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change working group on Mitigation of Climate Change from 2008 to 2015.

                          So what is the goal of environmental policy?

                          "We redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy," said Edenhofer.

                          For those who want to believe that maybe Edenhofer just misspoke and doesn't really mean that, consider that a little more than five years ago he also said that "the next world climate summit in Cancun is actually an economy summit during which the distribution of the world's resources will be negotiated."

                          Mad as they are, Edenhofer's comments are nevertheless consistent with other alarmists who have spilled the movement's dirty secret. Last year, Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of U.N.'s Framework Convention on Climate Change, made a similar statement.

                          "This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution," she said in anticipation of last year's Paris climate summit.

                          "This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to intentionally transform the economic development model for the first time in human history."

                          The plan is to allow Third World countries to emit as much carbon dioxide as they wish -- because, as Edenhofer said, "in order to get rich one has to burn coal, oil or gas" -- while at the same time restricting emissions in advanced nations. This will, of course, choke economic growth in developed nations, but they deserve that fate as they "have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community," he said. The fanaticism runs so deep that one professor has even suggested that we need to plunge ourselves into a depression to fight global warming.

                          Perhaps Naomi Klein summed up best what the warming the fuss is all about in her book "This Changes Everything: Capitalism vs. the Climate."

                          source

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Now, if you can demonstrate that this is hype, or that they were misquoted or misrepresented....
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Might as well get used to it.
                            I got used to it a long time ago. When it's pertinent to the discussion, I'll correct people about my political beliefs. When it isn't, what they assume I am doesn't matter.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                              Those academic exercises are necessary if we're to get past appeals to authority and "if you care, you will believe."
                              One "believes", in this instance, because of the considerable evidence which is available from the "authority" to which I'm appealing.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post




                                I just get really tired of people like Tassman endlessly screaming about climate change without a CLUE what to actually do about it. Then going on to stupidly charge that you don't care about your children if you don't care as much as he does about the drama.
                                Come now. Supporting the Environmental Protection Agency (instead of dismantling it as Trump is doing via Pruitt) is one “CLUE” of "what to do about it". Not reopening the coal mines as Trump is doing is another “CLUE”. And honouring the US commitment to the Paris Agreement is yet another “CLUE” of "what to do about it." There are lots of CLUES of what to actually do about it.

                                Then going on to stupidly charge that you don't care about your children if you don't care as much as he does about the drama.
                                Any support of Trump’s gung-ho, irresponsible approach to the above is indicative of lack of care re the future of the planet.
                                Last edited by Tassman; 05-27-2018, 12:59 AM.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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