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Atheistic morality: Is harm to animals on a continuum with harm to humans?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    One could be unconvinced of the evidence of global warming and personally exhibit good stewardship
    Absolutely - I was an environmentalist long before it was cool (or threatening to be too hot )
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Caveat 1: Life feeds on Life and the fittest survive to pass on their survival strategies for the DNA

      Caveat 2: more intelligent minds have the ability to minimize cruelty and leverage technology to get more output from calories spent.

      'Harm' is a part of life, but needless cruelty is usually an indication of a mind that is dysfunctional.


      As far as animals and Social Contract: what did humans do before written language? Spoken language?
      Perhaps the 'lower' forms of intelligent animals an get by on tribal/pack mentality. At the most rudimentary form, maybe instinct and body language are all that is needed for cooperative strategies?

      Comment


      • #18
        I consider the poll awkwardly worded. I do not believe the morality among humans and the moral values concerning animals and the environment can be directly equated except in advocating to do no unnecessary harm to humans, animals and the environment. The moral view of treating animals and the environment has considerable variation even going to the extreme of not killing nor eating any living thing of the animal kingdom. I grew up on a farm and raised our own meat and vegetables to a large extent. I did not then and still do not consider the raising of animals for food is immoral, but yes raising animals for food can be cruel and involve mistreatment of animals.

        I am mostly vegetarian not because of moral issues, but for practical health reasons.

        All of our physical existence is a river, and we are part of the river of life .
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          I consider the poll awkwardly worded. I do not believe the morality among humans and the moral values concerning animals and the environment can be directly equated except in advocating to do no unnecessary harm to humans, animals and the environment. The moral view of treating animals and the environment has considerable variation even going to the extreme of not killing nor eating any living thing of the animal kingdom. I grew up on a farm and raised our own meat and vegetables to a large extent. I did not then and still do not consider the raising of animals for food is immoral, but yes raising animals for food can be cruel and involve mistreatment of animals.

          I am mostly vegetarian not because of moral issues, but for practical health reasons.

          All of our physical existence is a river, and we are part of the river of life .
          Pretty much, yeah. (that 'river' part may be a bit esoteric, but I'll accept that in the same sense that "we're only here for a season", and we have choices in how to add to and/or take away from the resources of the planet)

          And now, I'll burst into one of my favorite silly church songs...

          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Pretty much, yeah. (that 'river' part may be a bit esoteric, but I'll accept that in the same sense that "we're only here for a season", and we have choices in how to add to and/or take away from the resources of the planet)

            And now, I'll burst into one of my favorite silly church songs...

            OK, church songs is your response.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              OK, church songs is your response.
              Ummmmm.... a little levity, Mr stuffshirt.

              And, you probably missed it, but I was pretty much agreeing with you. See if THAT ever happens again!
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                One could be unconvinced of the evidence of global warming and personally exhibit good stewardship
                One cannot ignore the evidence provided by those in the best position to know about climate change and still regard oneself as exhibiting "good stewardship" of the planet and its creatures...including us. "Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities, and most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position."

                https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Elsewhere on this forum I wrote:
                  [Harming another being is] wrong in proportion to its level of 'mind' - i.e. its sentience / cognition / conscious / comprehension / memory / self-awareness faculties. So rocks aren't on the scale because they don't have minds in any way shape or form, while plants / bacteria are at the absolute minimum of life on up through insects, fetuses, fish, mammals, and finally humans with fully functioning minds which have the maximum mind we have yet to encounter

                  And in doing so I felt somewhat surprised this was something I really needed to explain. But on this forum I've noticed most Christians here treat humans as qualitatively different to animals when it comes to morality. They believe that because humans are made in the image of God / have immortal souls / will be resurrected in the afterlife / have been given different commands by God about action toward other humans as compared to action toward animals, that therefore human-human moral interactions aren't on a continuum with human-animal moral interactions but are rather completely different to them. As such, they believe things like killing a developing human fetus is utterly and completely different to killing a developing animal fetus even if the two have the same levels of brain function (or lack thereof).

                  So, I'm wondering whether I'm right in simply assuming that all atheists here would share the same basic moral premises as myself that:
                  1. Humans exist on a continuum with animals, having evolved from them,
                  2. That what makes beings morally relevant is the extent to which they posses minds (let's avoid details here of whether by that we mean 'consciousness' or 'self-awareness' or 'possessing intention' or something else)
                  3. That minds exist on a scale of not there at all through to human-level

                  ...and thus share the belief that the moral differences between humans and animals are quantitative not qualitative.

                  I am wondering, in particular, if Carpedm will come down on the side of affirming all those premises, or will argue that because in practice morality is a social construct created through a social contract that therefore animals cannot participate in it because they can't negotiate their part in any contract.

                  Vote in the poll!
                  I went for “other”, thus: Yes, humans are on a continuum with animals, because animals show many signs of something intelligence.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    One cannot ignore the evidence provided by those in the best position to know about climate change and still regard oneself as exhibiting "good stewardship" of the planet and its creatures...
                    That's simply not true. One can be a good steward of the planet without knowing SQUAT about "the science"... There were people being "good stewards" of the earth LONG before all the Global Warming hype.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      That's simply not true. One can be a good steward of the planet without knowing SQUAT about "the science"... There were people being "good stewards" of the earth LONG before all the Global Warming hype.
                      We are always being told how in-tune with nature this or that primitive indigenous people are yet I'll bet they aren't aware of climate or environmental science.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        We are always being told how in-tune with nature this or that primitive indigenous people are yet I'll bet they aren't aware of climate or environmental science.
                        EGGzackly, my environmentalism came from my Dad, and his from his Dad -- and THAT was back when we were being threatened with "the coming ice age". God made us 'custodians' of the earth, and part of honoring God is taking care of what He has loaned us. As I alluded to earlier, I cringe when some of my conservative friends push back on environmentalism simply because of the phony blowhards like Al Gore who pervert the gospel of the environment while polluting it with his excesses.

                        We take care of the earth because it's the right thing to do, not because of threats from alarmists.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          That's simply not true. One can be a good steward of the planet without knowing SQUAT about "the science"... There were people being "good stewards" of the earth LONG before all the Global Warming hype.
                          One cannot be a good steward of the planet if one ignores the warnings of ninety-seven percent of climate scientists, who agree that climate-change trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities. Especially when the USA has a president who has signed an order at the EPA to dismantle environmental protections.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            One cannot ignore the evidence provided by those in the best position to know about climate change and still regard oneself as exhibiting "good stewardship" of the planet and its creatures...including us. "Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities, and most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position."

                            https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
                            Whether or not somebody who assents to a stipulated set of facts doesn't have to have any bearing on what they personally do. Actions they take in their everyday life such as recycling, not wasting, etc. are far more relevant than whether they are mentally convinced.

                            I think the evidence for global warming is absolutely overwhelming, but that's neither here nor there.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              EGGzackly, my environmentalism came from my Dad, and his from his Dad -- and THAT was back when we were being threatened with "the coming ice age". God made us 'custodians' of the earth, and part of honoring God is taking care of what He has loaned us. As I alluded to earlier, I cringe when some of my conservative friends push back on environmentalism simply because of the phony blowhards like Al Gore who pervert the gospel of the environment while polluting it with his excesses.

                              We take care of the earth because it's the right thing to do, not because of threats from alarmists.
                              One thing that bothered me when I was in high school was when my youth group leader said that we don't need to worry about the environment because Jesus would return before it got too bad. I thought that seemed like putting God to the test.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                                One thing that bothered me when I was in high school was when my youth group leader said that we don't need to worry about the environment because Jesus would return before it got too bad. I thought that seemed like putting God to the test.
                                Yeah, I've heard people say stuff like that, and even when I was a kid, I thought that sounded really dumb. But I grew up in a culture where you were taught "leave it cleaner than you found it", and stuff like, "when you borrow somebody's pickup, return it clean with a full tank of gas".
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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