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MS13 - Animals?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Not that I don't trust you, but I don't. Post it. In its entirety, please.
    He won't do it. After all, he's not your slave to do your bidding.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      I think such dehumanisation of others is absolutely atrocious. It's the kind of thinking that led to the holocaust. Labeling others as less than human paves the way for every kind of crime from torture to abuse to murder. It's the sort of language that the worst kind of people use to label their enemies to justify war.
      It was especially delicious hearing this sort of thing from pompous members of the MSM like CNN and ABC political commentator Ana Navarro who expressed her utter contempt for Trump's "dehumanizing" comments on Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota's morning program on CNN, New Day.

      And just like you she haughtily proclaimed that Trump is doing what the Nazis did by calling people "animals":

      "It is a very slippery slope when you start dehumanizing people this way. It’s what the Nazis did. It’s what slave owners did. It’s not what Americans do."


      And


      Oh the smug self-righteous indignation

      Apparently Navarro is forgetting about her own "slippery slope" comments back in 2016 when she tweeted the following after the Access Hollywood tapes surfaced in which Trump engaged in some very crude locker room talk about women:



      And to make sure that she wasn't misunderstood and that she didn't "misspeak," after the tragic incident in Charlottesville a year later Navarro ranted on CNN Newsroom that Trump was a spineless "coward" who is "unfit to be human."

      So it appears to be perfectly okay to use that terminology to attack Trump when he said gross things about women but calling a gang who's motto "mata, viola, controla" translates as "kill, rape, control" and who are known for tossing the heads of decapitated victims onto the middle of the floor of a night club "animals" goes well beyond the pale.

      As the anything but Trump-friendly USA Today put it:

      Source: Donald Trump is right. MS-13 members are 'animals.'


      Just because President Trump attacked immigrants in the past is no reason to condemn him today. He told the truth about an immigrant gang

      “Street gang MS-13, infamous for vicious machete killings, is first to be declared an international criminal group.” That’s a headline from the Daily Mail in 2012.

      “The gratuitous acts of violence these now-convicted gang members committed were intended to spread fear.” That’s a description from acting U.S. Attorney John Horn about a 2015 murder conviction in Georgia.

      “Video of the mutilated bodies was sent to a girlfriend of one of the victims.” “She was walking home one evening with Nisa, a basketball teammate one day shy of her 16th birthday, when MS-13 members spotted them and attacked with a machete and baseball bats.” “A large butcher knife, a bloodstained baseball hat and three 9mm handguns were also found in the car.”

      Those are all different incidents. All MS-13.

      On Wednesday, President Trump was speaking as part of his roundtable discussion on California’s sanctuary laws and was asked about MS-13. His response set off a firestorm.

      Fresno County Sheriff Margaret Mims brought up the gang and her department’s ability to combat them: “There could be an MS-13 member that I know about” and yet can’t report to Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

      Trump replied, saying in part, “These aren't people. These are animals."

      The controversy blew up when people and news organizations used the quote or clip without the context of Mims’ question. Trump wasn’t calling all illegal immigrants animals. One widely favored and retweeted response referred to Trump’s remark as the “language of ethnic cleansing.”

      Quickly, though, people on the right (and some journalists) corrected the record. That it was about MS-13 was reported more widely. Even so, many on the left, including notably House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, simply recalibrated to defend the humanity of the gang itself.

      “Does he not believe in the spark of divinity, the dignity and worth of every person?” Pelosi asked.

      Likewise, CNBC’s John Harwood said, “However repugnant their actions, MS-13 gang members are human beings IMHO.”

      Madness.

      The question is whether it was fair or wise of Trump to call MS-13 animals, and whether it’s a morally objectionable statement overall.

      The American Heritage Dictionary third definition of “animal” is “a person who behaves in a bestial or brutish manner.” By that definition, “animal” isn’t nearly strong enough.

      Today's news spat over MS-13 is part of a longer-running drama. Since Trump took office, there has been an effort to downplay the gang’s significance even as Trump has rhetorically raised its profile.

      He's not the only president to do so. In 2012 — you know, under President Obama — MS-13 was formally designated a transnational criminal organization by the Treasury Department. At the time, this was characterized approvingly as a “crackdown” by the Obama administration.

      MS-13 (or Mara Salvatrucha), a primarily El Salvador-based gang that started in Los Angeles, was believed to have about 10,000 members across the country at that time and Central America. They were known for hacking enemies to death, executing people in broad daylight in view of witnesses, and fatally beating people with bats.



      Source

      © Copyright Original Source



      The story continues with a long but extremely incomplete list of atrocities MS-13 is responsible for and then concludes

      Source: ibid


      The documentation of the gang’s brutality is long and horrifying. Murder, torture, rape, dismemberment, mutilation. These are heinous acts, and we’re meant to know it. They are committed for that reason, to shock and terrorize, silence and warn. MS-13 means for you to be repelled and horrified.

      Calling the people who commit these acts "animals" doesn't dehumanize them. Their actions dehumanize them. Just because the president has said bad things about immigrants in the past is no reason to condemn him today.

      Whatever you think about the president, it’s not responsible or reasonable to object when the president tells the truth about a brutal street gang.

      © Copyright Original Source



      What is especially interesting were Nancy Pelosi's (and a few other Democrats) remarks seeking to shield those innocent widdle lambs in MS-13 from the mean old Trump's nasty words. I have to seriously wonder if we are witnessing the morphing of that party into the champions and protectors of brutal street gangs.
      Last edited by rogue06; 05-19-2018, 09:28 AM.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        He won't do it. After all, he's not your slave to do your bidding.
        Maybe I should have said please with sugar on top?
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Maybe I should have said please with sugar on top?
          Wouldn't help. Because. Starlight.


          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            Wouldn't help. Because. Starlight.
            He's a different kind of animal, eh?



            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              Says the one who thinks nothing of killing humans before birth, and even afterwards.
              Talk about your dehumanizing

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Talk about your dehumanizing
                Exactly.


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  Sheriff Mims: “There could be an MS-13 member I know about — if they don’t reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it.”

                  Mr. Trump: “We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy.”


                  His comment was in response to Sheriff Mims' statement about MS-13, according to NYT, which is the ONLY reliable news source on the planet!
                  And yet, IIRC, the New York Times was among those initially disseminating "fake news" stories about Trump calling all immigrants "animals"

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


                    As the anything but Trump-friendly USA Today put it:
                    I should note that this was a guest editorial and not an opinion piece from one of the paper's editors as I originally thought. Still pretty much spot on though.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      And yet, IIRC, the New York Times was among those initially disseminating "fake news" stories about Trump calling all immigrants "animals"
                      Yeah, I just saw an article (don't remember where) how these "journalists" are really doing themselves a disservice by allowing their hatred for Trump to guide their "news" stories.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        And yet, IIRC, the New York Times was among those initially disseminating "fake news" stories about Trump calling all immigrants "animals"
                        An example:



                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          "Cops are pigs!"
                          "A fetus is not an 'unborn child'! It is a parasitic ball of goop and nothing more!"

                          ...said no one on the left, ever, because such dehumanizing language is befitting only of Hitler-loving right-wing Nazis and not enlightened progressives.
                          Last edited by CMD; 05-19-2018, 11:56 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CMD View Post
                            "Cops are pigs!"
                            "A fetus is not an 'unborn child'! It is a parasitic ball of goop and nothing more!"

                            ...said no one on the left, ever, because such dehumanizing language is befitting only of Hitler-loving right-wing Nazis and not enlightened progressives.
                            And our beloved Muslim friends from the religion of peace declare that Jews are (or are descended from) monkeys and pigs!
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              An example:


                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]27863[/ATTACH]
                              Here are a few examples how Trump's remarks were mischaracterized by the MSM and Democrats (probably should stop distinguishing between the two since they are in effect one and the same):


                              New York Times:

                              Source: Trump Calls Some Unauthorized Immigrants ‘Animals’ in Rant


                              President Trump lashed out at undocumented immigrants during a White House meeting on Wednesday, warning in front of news cameras that dangerous people were clamoring to breach the country’s borders and branding such people “animals.”



                              Source

                              © Copyright Original Source


                              Admittedly, they do provide a bit of context to Trump's remarks further down in the story but they're fully aware that most folks tend to just read headlines and maybe scan the first paragraph.


                              USA Today:

                              Source: OnPolitics Today: Trump calls undocumented people 'animals,' rhetoric with a dark past


                              "These aren't people. These are animals."

                              That's how President Trump described undocumented immigrants during a White House meeting Wednesday, venting frustration at officials in both Mexico and California.

                              “You wouldn't believe how bad these people are," Trump said in the meeting. "These aren't people. These are animals."

                              Calling people "animals" isn't new for Trump. Criminals from other countries are "animals," Trump said last year in Ohio. A terror suspect from Uzbekistan was an "animal," too, Trump said, as was a Mexican worker acquitted of a death in California.

                              And Trump's not the first to use such rhetoric: Adolf Hitler justified the Holocaust by saying Jews weren't people but rats, as NPR notes. In the Rwandan genocide, Tutsis were called not people, but cockroaches, and slaveowners justified slavery by calling their slaves not people, but animals.



                              Source

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              Along with

                              Source: Trump ramps up rhetoric on undocumented immigrants: 'These aren't people. These are animals.'


                              President Trump used extraordinarily harsh rhetoric to renew his call for stronger immigration laws Wednesday, calling undocumented immigrants "animals" and venting frustration at Mexican officials who he said "do nothing" to help the United States.

                              “We have people coming into the country or trying to come in, we're stopping a lot of them, but we're taking people out of the country. You wouldn't believe how bad these people are," Trump said.

                              "These aren't people. These are animals."



                              Source

                              © Copyright Original Source


                              The St. Louis Post-Dispatch picked it up and ran this story. I'm sure many others have as well.


                              Vanity Fair:

                              Source: WHITE HOUSE DOUBLES DOWN AFTER TRUMP SAYS ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS “AREN’T PEOPLE”


                              “Frankly, I think the term animal doesn’t go far enough.”

                              At a White House roundtable on Wednesday, the man who launched his presidential gambit by labeling Mexicans “rapists” and calling for a massive wall along the southern border expressed his frustration with California’s so-called sanctuary laws in equally venomous terms. “We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in—we’re stopping a lot of them,” he said at one point during the hour-long meeting, which was open to press. “You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It's crazy.”



                              Source

                              © Copyright Original Source


                              Note how they put the header "Real Donald Trump" in red letters above the story.


                              Washington Post:

                              Source: In reference to ‘animals,’ Trump evokes an ugly history of dehumanization


                              President Trump on Thursday pointedly referred to undocumented immigrants as "animals" in a statement his critics say betrays a gross misunderstanding of the plight of people who came to the United States illegally, and beyond that, little sympathy for them.

                              During an immigration roundtable at the White House with administration aides, political leaders and California law enforcement officials, Trump said his administration was deporting undocumented immigrants who commit violent crimes.



                              Source

                              © Copyright Original Source


                              What's truly bizarre is they provide a transcript of what exactly was said demonstrating how badly they're mischaracterizing things right after the above. It's like their Trump Derangement Syndrome has blinded them.


                              AP:


                              Lawrence O'Donnell of MSNBC w/ C-Span:


                              Andrea Mitchell of MSNBC:


                              CBS:


                              CNN:


                              Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer:


                              Another one from Washington Post:


                              Rep. Eric Swalwell


                              Another one from AP:



                              There are many other examples that I wasn't able to get screen captures of including

                              ABC News:

                              Pres. Trump refers to some who cross the border illegally as 'animals,' not people. "You wouldn't believe how bad these people are."

                              The president was holding a roundtable discussion with California elected officials who oppose the state's sanctuary law.



                              Rep. Nydia Velazquez:

                              .@realDonaldTrump referring to immigrants as "animals" is an affront to our nation's values. Trump should choose his words more carefully. Remember, there's a specific animal many women associate him with.

                              So she attacks Trump for calling someone an animal while likening him to an animal


                              CNN political commentator Keith Boykin:

                              Trump referring to human beings as "animals" is the same dehumanization tactic used by slave traders and slave owners to justify the oppression of black people for hundreds of years.



                              Deputy Research Director for the ‎Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Tyler Hansen:

                              Trump: "We're taking people out of the country — you wouldn't believe how bad these people are. These aren't people. These are animals."

                              He surrounds the quote with pictures of young immigrant toddlers -- you know, typical MS-13 members.


                              ThinkProgress reporter Aaron Rupar:

                              Trump strikes a Hitlerian note about immigrants: "You wouldn't believe how bad these people are. These aren't people. These are animals."


                              Huffington Post politics and immigration reporter Elise Foley:

                              These aren’t people. These are animals.” - Trump says of (some of) the immigrants being deported during his sanctuary cities roundtable

                              And which "some" were they again Elise?


                              Political reporter for NBC News Benjy Sarlin (responding to Elise Foley's tweet):

                              One of Trump's most consistent rhetorical moves is comparing large classes of human beings to animals -- a political tactic with a long and deadly history



                              Political contributor to The New York Times, The New Republic and Salon Jared Yates Sexton who tweeted "The President of the United States is a repulsive bigot" and elaborated shortly afterwards:

                              There’s no other way to say it. No impartiality. No euphemisms. No way to clean it up for TV or polite discussion. Just a repulsive bigot.



                              Washington Post columnist Jennifer Rubin:

                              this is disgusting. and his evanglical sycophants will applaud his utter dehumanization of men, women and children

                              Yes, I know she misspelled evangelical. And like Ana Navarro, she has also likened Trump to an animal in the past


                              And from over across the pond, Hannah Jane Parkinson who reports on pop culture for The Guardian:

                              Trump just verbatim referred to some immigrants as animals. “These aren’t people, these are animals.” [f-bomb] everyone who voted for him & everyone who continues to appease him.

                              Note the raw language so be advised if you click on the link.

                              And even after it became clear that Trump was explicitly referring to MS-13 gang members as "animals" and some of the above sheepishly retracted their claims

                              00000000000000ars5ea.png
                              AP for instance



                              While CNN has also issued a similar retraction as AP, there were still some who will have none of it and have instead doubled down. Take NPR Latino USA host and executive producer Maria Hinojosa who, while on NPR's All In show proclaimed:

                              I'm going to remain calm, right, because we`re on national television. But seriously, as somebody who was not born in this country, and I refuse to allow this president to kind of define good immigrant, bad immigrant because the litmus test at this point is simply that people who were not born in this country are animals.

                              So I'll remain calm, but seriously our hair should be on fire! Because I was in Rwanda and so I spoke to journalists who spoke to me me about what happened there and how the Tutsis were referred to as cockroaches. So the terms that people use really have a connection. I mean, there`s such a clear connection to what the president is saying.


                              Likewise, Enrique Acevedo, a news anchor on the Hispanic network Univision declared while a guest on Fox News' Tucker Carlson Tonight:

                              We cannot pretend that this is not part of a larger trend that started way before Donald Trump became president, a trend of criminalizing and dehumanizing all immigrants, not just the bad hombres.


                              And The Washington Post has announced that they stand by their erroneous assertions proclaiming in an email that it is "accurate."
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by rogue06; 05-19-2018, 01:52 PM.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Bet you not a single one of our resident liberals is going to call out the mainstream media for what can only be described as a bald-faced lie.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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