MS13 - Animals?

[NorrinRadd]

Last I looked it was a fairly common position among US conservatives to want less immigrants in general ...

Not just conservatives.

[rogue06]

CMD, you're comparing an injury to one (deserving of critique) person, with promoting the habit of tarring whole (potentially deserving of critique) groups as sub-human.

So let's get this straight... You're on record as saying that murdering a person "deserving of critique" would likely make you "mildly happy" but go apoplectic if someone calls a group with the motto "mata, viola, controla" (which means "kill, rape, control") and who quite literally celebrate extreme brutality (and who you think are only "potentially deserving of critique") "animals."

[rogue06]

Not just conservatives.

That's obviously because they're nothing but a bunch of right-wing racists.



Let's face it, if MS-13 was composed of white conservative Southerners instead of illegal Central Americans, liberals like starlight would be screaming for the Marines to be sent in to wipe them out and would definitely be describing them in far worse terms than "animal."

[rogue06]

MS-13 is a group of violent gang members that have to tortured, raped, and murdered tens of thousands of people that make Neo-Nazi’s pretty tame in comparison. The fact you mindlessly defend them says your hate for Trump over-rides all sense.

As I keep saying, the left is rapidly becoming the home for supporting ultra-violent street gangs. They're going from turning a blind eye to all the violence associated with groups like Occupy, BLM and Antifa to voicing full-throated support for a rape-murder gang

[Starlight]

So let's get this straight...

A lot to straighten out it turns out, given the weird combination of views you're trying to ascribe to me.

You're on record as saying that murdering a person "deserving of critique" would likely make you "mildly happy"

No, I don't think murdering anyone in general who is deserving of critique would be a good thing, nor would it make me happy. I'm saying that one particular bad person, Richard Spencer, is deserving of critique, and also that if that one particular person happened to be killed that on the whole I would probably be mildly happy about it to the extent that I cared.

And then we move from something happening to one very specific named bad person, to talking about how whole minority groups are treated and talked about:

but go apoplectic if someone calls a group with the motto

Get over your idiocy already. I have made it abundantly clear repeatedly in this thread, that I do not buy the claim that Trump was talking directly about MS-13, and have repeatedly stated my view that I think it is clear that he was talking generally about a subset of illegal immigrants - his comments parallel his original claims that:

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending the best. They're sending people that have lots of problems and they're bringing those problems. They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime. They're rapists and some, I assume, are good people"

It is these "bad hombres" among the bunch as he's also called them that he appears to have been thinking of when he called them "animals". It's the (large) subset of illegal immigrants whom he thinks are terrible people.

Now you can live in Republican fingers-in-ears lala land on the issue if you want and insist that you think that Trump only meant MS-13. Whatever. You're entitled to your own banana cake views. However, you're specifically in this post talking about what I think, and I've made it absolutely and consistently clear I think he wasn't only referring to MS-13, so don't be disingenuous and pretend that I think it was a reference to MS-13.

and who quite literally celebrate extreme brutality (and who you think are only "potentially deserving of critique")

MS-13 are deserving of critique. A lot of it. Heaps and heaps of it. I'm not going to defend them in any way.

The 'potentially deserving of critique' referred to the many and various groups that people use dehumanizing language against. Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Gays, Arabs, terrorists, enemy combatants, MS-13, etc. Some are deserving of critique - e.g. MS-13, terrorists. And others not.

"animals."

Most of the serious moral problems with the US today, and with US conservatives / right-wingers in particular seem to me (and others) to center around the lack of value placed on human life. Labeling groups as sub-human is typically the main step taken before serious breaches of human rights. The (suspected) terrorists (some of whom turned out to be innocent) could be tortured (to death) because they were less-than-human scum who didn't have human rights in the minds of the criminal Republican administration. Cops can gun down black people with impunity because the lives of black people don't matter in the minds of some and they're viewed as subhuman.

So I think it is important in general, and particularly important at this point in time in the US that groups of people not be labelled as subhuman or demeaned as 'animals'. Yes, that does even apply to the worst dregs of humanity like Dick Cheney, MS-13, or Trump. They might be terrible people who have histories of criminality and doing horrific things, but they are people nonetheless, and it is important to remember that, especially when enacting policies that would have serious effects on them and especially when thinking about policies that would abrogate their basic human rights. Overall, the US has serious problems and those problems are centered around a common lack of love for fellow man and a willingness to seriously mistreat and dehumanize others, and that is a well that I see the US right-wing drinking from constantly. America's big problem is not that the Richard Spencers of this world are getting punched in the face. If and when a million Richard Spencers are getting their faces punched daily or murdered on the streets weekly, then we can have this conversation again, and I will likely grant you that yes that has become 'America's big problem', but until then it is hilarious and sad to see you guys desperate to defend neo-nazis and white supremacists from any sort of push back even when it's minor, yet giving the thumbs up to the mass duhumanisation of your fellow man and have no problems with calling groups of people animals and with wars and torture and mass breaches of human rights etc.

[rogue06]

Get over your idiocy already. I have made it abundantly clear repeatedly in this thread, that I do not buy the claim that Trump was talking directly about MS-13, and have repeatedly stated my view that I think it is clear that he was talking generally about a subset of illegal immigrants

And which sub-set would that be? The one expressly listed by Sheriff Mims and to which Trump directly responded to? You know, the gang which Trump has a long history of referring to as animals.

[Starlight]

And which sub-set would that be?

Try reading the post you're responding to, it was made clear there.

The one expressly listed by Sheriff Mims

No.

and to which Trump directly responded to?

No, he didn't. He responded to the specific statement about MS-13 by ignoring the specifics of the comment, and taking it as an opportunity to give a vague Trumpian waffle about some of the illegal immigrants being bad people. Same type of waffle he's given before when he called some of them "bad hombres" in a debate, and referring to them as "They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime. They're rapists" in the launch of his bid for the presidency. In his mind it's a large subset of these illegal immigrants who are these bad people, and only "some of them, I assume are good people" according to him.

[KingsGambit]

As I keep saying, the left is rapidly becoming the home for supporting ultra-violent street gangs. They're going from turning a blind eye to all the violence associated with groups like Occupy, BLM and Antifa to voicing full-throated support for a rape-murder gang

[Cow Poke]

No, he didn't.

Yes, he did.

He responded to the specific statement about MS-13 by ignoring the specifics of the comment,

Nope.

and taking it as an opportunity to give a vague Trumpian waffle...

It wasn't a 'waffle', it was a grand Trumpian wander into blather, which allowed the loony left to jump on his statement, take it out of context, and flat out lie. You appear to be one of their cheerleaders.

[rogue06]

That is the route they are taking what with the House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi wistfully talking about them possessing the "spark of divinity" and how we need to "respect the dignity and worth" of these wanton killers.

Likewise, Will Wilkinson, a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times and a regular columnist for Vox, is proclaiming that "every member" of MS-13 has "dignity that demands respect."

And there's Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer comparing MS-13 to our ancestors who came to America declaring that our "great-great-grandparents" weren't animals when they immigrated here and members of MS-13 "aren't either."

And Sen. Dianne Feinstein who also apparently not only believes that MS-13 gang members are not "animals" but are instead "are our family and friends and they make significant contributions to our country."

They are desperately attempting to conflate MS-13 gang members with all immigrants

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[rogue06]

Even the rabidly anti-Trump CNN is now admitting what was obvious

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The very fact that most critics edited out Sheriff Mim's remarks made just before Trump spoke (and to which he was responding) at the very least indicates that many of those who tried to paint this as Trump calling all illegal immigrants "animals" suspected that their portrayal of what happened was erroneous or else they wouldn't have snipped it out.

[Cow Poke]

Even the rabidly anti-Trump CNN is now admitting what was obvious

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The very fact that most critics edited out Sheriff Mim's remarks made just before Trump spoke (and to which he was responding) at the very least indicates that many of those who tried to paint this as Trump calling all illegal immigrants "animals" suspected that their portrayal of what happened was erroneous or else they wouldn't have snipped it out.

It is such a vivid example of how much the left hates Trump - they would happily and vigorously defend MS13 if it meant an opportunity to score points against Trump.

[rogue06]

It is such a vivid example of how much the left hates Trump - they would happily and vigorously defend MS13 if it meant an opportunity to score points against Trump.

Much like how there are a few folks out there really hoping that Trump's talk with North Korea go nowhere so they can gloat.

They would much rather have a madman with his finger on a nuclear trigger than have Trump get credit for doing anything good.

[Mountain Man]

The idea that virtually all such immigrants commit violent crimes?

Based on crime statistics, those who have no respect for our immigration laws are less likely to respect our laws in general.

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2018/...-came-legally/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...ans-study.html
https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...tizens_do.html

[Starlight]

It is such a vivid example of how much the left hates Trump - they would happily and vigorously defend MS13 if it meant an opportunity to score points against Trump.

Can you cite any examples of anyone "happily and vigorously defend[ing] MS13"? I haven't any defense of them in any of the various liberal media I consume daily. I googled for right-wing articles listing the egregious leftist defenses of MS-13 and, I kid you not, here are the stunning and vigorous 'defenses' of MS-13 they cite:

"however repugnant their actions, MS-13 gang members are human beings" - John Harwood (CNBC)

"Referring to any humans as ‘animals’ edges toward the language of genocide.” - Anthony Zurcher (BBC)

“Some of us who are attracted to the political arena, to government and public service” believe that “we are all God’s children” and “there is a spark of divinity among every person on earth, and we all have to recognize that as we respect the dignity and worth of every person.”... [we must recognize that divinity in others, and it is our responsibility to do so because we have “divinity in us.”]... “So when the president of the United States says about undocumented immigrants, ‘These aren’t people, these are animals,’ you have to wonder, does he not believe in the spark of divinity, the dignity and worth of every person?’ ...“Calling people animals is not a good thing" - Nancy Pelosi

Immigrants are not “animals.” - Dianne Feinstein

“Dehumanizing large groups of people is the demagogue’s precursor to visiting violence and pain upon them. It makes it easier to destroy their families and much worse,” - John Legend (singer)

What robust defenses of MS-13! Such praise! Extolling their virtues, no end!

Seriously, can you either explain how any of that is actually a 'defense' of MS-13, or how it is 'a happy and vigorous one', or actually find me some quotes actually defending MS-13 by these liberals you think are out there somewhere defending MS-13?

Otherwise I'll write this off as yet another utter delusion on your part.