MS13 - Animals?

[Cow Poke]

Much like how there are a few folks out there really hoping that Trump's talk with North Korea go nowhere so they can gloat.

They would much rather have a madman with his finger on a nuclear trigger than have Trump get credit for doing anything good.

As much as it sounds like a cliche', they appear to hate Trump more than they love America.

[Cow Poke]

Otherwise I'll write this off as yet another utter delusion on your part.

That's all you do! And it's kinda fun ignoring (for the most part) your goofy rants. You're working yourself up into a steamer, Star.

[Mountain Man]

Trump is deliberately “blurring the lines”...

The only ones "blurring the lines" are dishonest liberals like you and Dimbulb trying to make Trump out as saying something he didn't.

[Mountain Man]

As much as it sounds like a cliche', they appear to hate Trump more than they love America.

And I'm not convinced they love America.

[Cow Poke]

And I'm not convinced they love America.

I think they love their version of America, which would be a socialist America.

[rogue06]

Can you cite any examples of anyone "happily and vigorously defend[ing] MS13"? I haven't any defense of them in any of the various liberal media I consume daily. I googled for right-wing articles listing the egregious leftist defenses of MS-13 and, I kid you not, here are the stunning and vigorous 'defenses' of MS-13 they cite:

"however repugnant their actions, MS-13 gang members are human beings" - John Harwood (CNBC)

"Referring to any humans as ‘animals’ edges toward the language of genocide.” - Anthony Zurcher (BBC)

“Some of us who are attracted to the political arena, to government and public service” believe that “we are all God’s children” and “there is a spark of divinity among every person on earth, and we all have to recognize that as we respect the dignity and worth of every person.”... [we must recognize that divinity in others, and it is our responsibility to do so because we have “divinity in us.”]... “So when the president of the United States says about undocumented immigrants, ‘These aren’t people, these are animals,’ you have to wonder, does he not believe in the spark of divinity, the dignity and worth of every person?’ ...“Calling people animals is not a good thing" - Nancy Pelosi

Immigrants are not “animals.” - Dianne Feinstein

“Dehumanizing large groups of people is the demagogue’s precursor to visiting violence and pain upon them. It makes it easier to destroy their families and much worse,” - John Legend (singer)

What robust defenses of MS-13! Such praise! Extolling their virtues, no end!

Seriously, can you either explain how any of that is actually a 'defense' of MS-13, or how it is 'a happy and vigorous one', or actually find me some quotes actually defending MS-13 by these liberals you think are out there somewhere defending MS-13?

Otherwise I'll write this off as yet another utter delusion on your part.

Much like how many in the MSM deliberately excluded what Sheriff Mims said, and to which Trump was directly responded to which showed he was talking about MS-13, starlight has snipped out pertinent parts, such as where Feinstein droned on about how they "are our family and friends and they make significant contributions to our country" or simply cherry-picked the least dubious of the remarks floating around. I mean who cares what some singer said?

[Cow Poke]

Much like how many in the MSM deliberately excluded what Sheriff Mims said, and to which Trump was directly responded to which showed he was talking about MS-13, starlight is snipping out pertinent parts, such as where Pelosi whined about needing to "respect the dignity and worth" of these butchers or where Feinstein droned on about how they "are our family and friends and they make significant contributions to our country."

I think his objection involved the picking of nit of my choice of words - "happily and vigorously defend[ing] MS13".

I'll gladly dial that back to "dutifully and dishonorably defend[ing] MS13".

[Starlight]

Based on crime statistics, those who have no respect for our immigration laws are less likely to respect our laws in general.

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2018/...-came-legally/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...ans-study.html
https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...tizens_do.html

Your first link shows data from Texas that says that illegal immigrants commit much less crime than the average native-born US citizen, and that legal immigrants are even better.

Your second link, in stark contrast to your first link, makes the case that illegal immigrants are committing more crimes than the average native-born US citizen, in Arizona at least. However, the group doing the study in this link are pretty suspect in terms of credibility, so without looking into the details of the study, I would tend to suspect that the findings in the first link are much more trustworthy than the second link.

The third link seems to be a back-of-the-envelope, guessing at numbers, some guy spit-balling on a blog. I don't see any reason to take it seriously at all.

So your own links overall make me think that illegal immigrants probably commit less crime than the average US citizen. And that's not even counting the fact that if you just do a simple google on the subject and look at all the hits on reputable sources that will show up (rather than scraping the barrel for extreme sources as you have), they are study after study finding that immigrants commit much less crime than natives.

[Cow Poke]

Your first link shows data from Texas that says that illegal immigrants commit much less crime than the average native-born US citizen...

I'm actually torn on this.

Having been a "facilities guy" for a gas compression company, with many gas wells across southern Texas, I found on a weekly basis that our field offices had been broken into, property destroyed, and things stolen from illegals coming across the border.

A good humanitarian would say "they weren't committing a crime, they were just needing water and food". But breaking into somebody else's property and stealing things is still a crime. Would we ever catch, charge and prosecute these people? Fat chance.

So, while some of these people have, indeed, committed additional crimes (besides the initial crime of entering the country illegally), there will be no documentation to add to any study to show the actual numbers.

While I would not deny them food or water, that's no excuse for vandalizing property and stealing computers and other equipment.

One of the biggest problems with "crime statistics" is that only those who get caught are "in the report".

And most people who are here illegally will purposely NOT commit crimes where they might get caught and deported. So the idea that they "commit less crime" is based on the assumption that they're not committing crimes for which they will not be arrested and charged.

[Starlight]

starlight has snipped out pertinent parts, such as where Feinstein droned on about how they "are our family and friends and they make significant contributions to our country" or simply cherry-picked the least dubious of the remarks floating around. I mean who cares what some singer said?

I was looking at various articles from right-wing sources - that's how they reported it, not me.

Daily Caller:

Singer John Legend may have gone the furthest in his MS-13 defense.

I wouldn't have wanted you to think I was leaving out the good stuff, so them saying that compelled me to include the quote they gave from that singer I've never heard of.

The Federalist:

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) also believes MS-13 gang members are not “animals” and that Trump’s remarks were “deeply offensive and racist.” She added that these thugs are “our family and friends” that “make significant contributions to our country.”

Twitter: Sen Dianne Feinstein (@SenFeinstein)
Immigrants are not “animals.” The president’s statement was deeply offensive and racist. Immigrants are our family and friends and they make significant contributions to our country.
12:40 PM - May 17, 2018

You can’t make this stuff up.

(That's all they say on Feinstein. The Daily Caller article doesn't mention her at all.) Obviously Feinstein is talking about immigrants in general, as she says in her tweet. The article itself has decided that since they believe Trump was talking about MS-13 only and that since Feinstein is talking about Trump's comment, that therefore she must believe Trump was talking about MS-13 only (which she clearly doesn't) and that therefore she must be referring to MS-13 only (which she clearly isn't), and that therefore her statement that "Immigrants are our family and friends" must be about MS-13. Their interpretation effectively means they think Feinstein is claiming to have family and friends in MS-13! Apparently that wasn't enough to help them realize they'd gone wrong in their interpretation of her words...

If those right-wing sources did a poor job on the story, well, I agree (But, then, I think they're a joke on all stories and issues), mostly because I don't think it is a story, since zero liberals are defending MS-13 or saying anything nice about MS-13 whatsoever. But it was those right-wing outlets, not me, who picked which liberal 'defenses' of MS-13 to cite. I didn't go snipping out the good parts.

[Starlight]

Having been a "facilities guy" for a gas compression company, with many gas wells across southern Texas, I found on a weekly basis that our field offices had been broken into, property destroyed, and things stolen from illegals coming across the border.

I think when most people think of illegals committing crimes (especially violent crimes) they are thinking of the crimes that illegals supposedly commit in their communities once they settle into them. They are not thinking of the border crossing itself (and any associated thefts of necessary supplies) as the crime. Rather, they are saying they don't want illegals to settle into their community because they believe they will commit crime once they get there.

Would we ever catch, charge and prosecute these people? Fat chance...
One of the biggest problems with "crime statistics" is that only those who get caught are "in the report".

The data in the links is based on actual arrests or imprisonments. So, yeah, if they can't be caught they aren't being counted in this instance.

And most people who are here illegally will purposely NOT commit crimes where they might get caught and deported.

Yes. To me that seems obvious. But Trump, and MM don't seem to understand that.

Somewhat interestingly though, illegals do seem to commit more crimes than legals (who are presumably also being on their best behavior to avoid deportation).

[Mountain Man]

Your first link shows data from Texas that says that illegal immigrants commit much less crime than the average native-born US citizen, and that legal immigrants are even better.

Your second link, in stark contrast to your first link, makes the case that illegal immigrants are committing more crimes than the average native-born US citizen, in Arizona at least. However, the group doing the study in this link are pretty suspect in terms of credibility, so without looking into the details of the study, I would tend to suspect that the findings in the first link are much more trustworthy than the second link.

The third link seems to be a back-of-the-envelope, guessing at numbers, some guy spit-balling on a blog. I don't see any reason to take it seriously at all.

So your own links overall make me think that illegal immigrants probably commit less crime than the average US citizen. And that's not even counting the fact that if you just do a simple google on the subject and look at all the hits on reputable sources that will show up (rather than scraping the barrel for extreme sources as you have), they are study after study finding that immigrants commit much less crime than natives.

Don't confuse crime rates with number of overall crimes committed.

[rogue06]

If not a single Democrat could bring themselves to stand for victims of MS-13 violence during Trump's State of the Union because of an all-consuming hatred for Trump, it should come as no surprise that they have rallied in the defense of MS-13 to help shield them from that nasty old Trump calling these little angels (who posses a "dignity that demands respect" and "are our family and friends and they make significant contributions to our country") "animals."

In a sane world Trump would be criticized not for calling MS-13 "animals" but for insulting animals by likening MS-13 to them.

[Cow Poke]

I think when most people think of illegals committing crimes (especially violent crimes) they are thinking of the crimes that illegals supposedly commit in their communities once they settle into them. They are not thinking of the border crossing itself (and any associated thefts of necessary supplies) as the crime. Rather, they are saying they don't want illegals to settle into their community because they believe they will commit crime once they get there.

And, that's why I said I'm "torn"... I think, once here, MOST of them want to "fly beneath the radar", so if they DO commit crimes, they're gonna be extra careful about it so as not to show their hand. We just don't know. But my gut would be that MOST of them simply want to take care of their families and stay out of trouble.

The data in the links is based on actual arrests or imprisonments. So, yeah, if they can't be caught they aren't being counted in this instance.

It's a really hard thing to measure. Crime statistics are more about crime than people -- there are hundreds of thousands of "unsolved crimes", where we know that a crime has been committed, but we don't know who, so we can't include or exclude "illegal immigrants", except through the presumption of innocence.

Yes. To me that seems obvious. But Trump, and MM don't seem to understand that.

I can't speak for them, but I think whenever a person complaining about "illegals committing crimes", they're talking about the 'bad actors', not "every illegal immigrant", and the left jumps on it with all four feet and declares "see THERE!!! They're hateful because they're accusing ALL Mexicans (or whoever)... rant rant rant...

Somewhat interestingly though, illegals do seem to commit more crimes than legals (who are presumably also being on their best behavior to avoid deportation).

If somebody has no compunction about breaking one law (illegal entry), why would we think they have the moral compass to honor OTHER laws? And that gets back to the whole "stealing a loaf of bread to feed my family" argument.

[Mountain Man]

And most people who are here illegally will purposely NOT commit crimes where they might get caught and deported.

The is fact that those here illegally are disproportionately more likely to commit violent crimes.