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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Right, thanks mostly to us.
    Without disrespecting your service...no. While our military has played many excellent role sin defending our country, Communism doe snot have a chance of "taking over" because Democracy and freedom are simply too intoxicating. Many times, we sent our boys into harms way when what we really needed to do was invite a mass of the young people of any given country to simply come and live here for a while, then return them to their country to "spread the word."

    This is the largest danger of our current "we hate immigrants" posture. Our best weapon is our culture. Let others experience it, and they will go back home and "infect" their countries.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    I never had a martini. Are you James Bond...
    Not even on my best day...

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    No, you just remind of the protestors, it has been that way for me since I returned from my tour of duty - and it will not change. If you want to call it blind allegiance, fine I plead guilty.
    And that is understandable. You just need to know that people like me exist: we can love our country - and call it to account in the same breath. If you wonder how or why, you need look no further than your own children. You love them unconditionally, I am sure - yet you will not hesitate to call them to answer for their acts if they step out of line.

    My feelings for this country are similar....

    And, for the record, I will always utterly reject the unfounded accusation that I "hate my country." I do not hate my children when I hold them accountable. I do not hate my country when I do the same.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Without disrespecting your service...no. While our military has played many excellent role sin defending our country, Communism doe snot have a chance of "taking over" because Democracy and freedom are simply too intoxicating. Many times, we sent our boys into harms way when what we really needed to do was invite a mass of the young people of any given country to simply come and live here for a while, then return them to their country to "spread the word."
      Oh, stop! There is no way western Europe could have stopped the Russian bear without the United States. And most of mankind for most of history, even to today, lived under totalitarian rule. Yes liberty is intoxicating, but so is staying alive.

      This is the largest danger of our current "we hate immigrants" posture. Our best weapon is our culture. Let others experience it, and they will go back home and "infect" their countries.
      That is rather Pollyannish...

      Not even on my best day...
      Shaken, not stirred?



      And that is understandable. You just need to know that people like me exist: we can love our country - and call it to account in the same breath. If you wonder how or why, you need look no further than your own children. You love them unconditionally, I am sure - yet you will not hesitate to call them to answer for their acts if they step out of line.

      My feelings for this country are similar....

      And, for the record, I will always utterly reject the unfounded accusation that I "hate my country." I do not hate my children when I hold them accountable. I do not hate my country when I do the same.
      And you need to know that people like me exist. Apart from the return of Christ, I believe the best hope for worldwide freedom and prosperity is the United States of America.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Any why did we do that Carp? Most of these thing happened in the context of the Cold War when we needed to choose between the lesser of two evils, like when we supported Russia and the Stalinists over Nazism. Later we supported right wing regimes over Communist insurgents. Hence, international Communism has been largely dismantled. And that is a good thing for us and the world.
        On a related note, I think the funniest moment in the Democrat primaries was when Hillary and Bernie were stumped by the question, "What's the difference between a Democrat and a socialist?"
        Last edited by Mountain Man; 05-26-2018, 02:53 PM.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          On a related note, I think the funniest moment in the Democrat primaries was 2hen Hillary and Bernie were stumped by the question, "What's the difference between a Democrat and a socialist?"
          Uh.... um.... can I get back to you on that?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Uh.... um.... can I get back to you on that?
            The funniest moment of the campaign was when a candidate for governor said that he admired Hillary for her honesty, and the audience laughed.

            http://www.businessinsider.com/charl...-debate-2016-9
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              The funniest moment of the campaign was when a candidate for governor said that he admired Hillary for her honesty, and the audience laughed.

              http://www.businessinsider.com/charl...-debate-2016-9
              It won't let me see that site without disabling my adblocker, but I remember it well. Poor guy!
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                So the Khmer Rouge killed between 1.4 and 2.6 million people in a population that was estimated to be 3.7 Billion the late 1960s. That's an atrocity that killed between 0.038% and 0.054% of the population of the planet.

                The estimates are that 200K people died in the crusades (which spanned a significantly longer time). World population in 1290 was estimated to be 360-450 million (that's the end of the Crusades). That means the crusades killed between 0.044 and 0.056% percent of the world population. If you take the average world population over the 200 year period, the percentage is even higher.

                You find similar numbers when you take other conflicts, religious or otherwise. Bottom line - people kill for a variety of reasons. When there are more people, and more powerful weapons, more people get killed. Trying to point to one group (theists vs. atheists) and suggest they are more or less prone to violence is not viable, IMO. There are simply too many variables. Indeed, defining which wars are and are not religious is itself problematic.
                I seem to have misunderstood your argument. I was under the impression that you were referring to the percentage of the population of the particular country involved.

                Your argument here is pretty craptacular, since you're limiting the present number to a handful of years (and in only one of multiple locations where mass killings were taking place) to a timeframe nearly 2 orders of magnitude longer.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  The funniest moment of the campaign was when a candidate for governor said that he admired Hillary for her honesty, and the audience laughed.

                  http://www.businessinsider.com/charl...-debate-2016-9
                  As opposed to "I can never tell a lie", Donald Trump you mean.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    It won't let me see that site without disabling my adblocker, but I remember it well. Poor guy!
                    It was Charlie Crist. You can find the clip on YouTube. His startled response to the audience's reaction is priceless.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      I seem to have misunderstood your argument. I was under the impression that you were referring to the percentage of the population of the particular country involved.
                      No - I was speaking incidence to world population. More people and better weapons...more death. We happen to have both of those since the industrial revolution, which also happens to be the time when theocracies have diminished and secular regimes have gained prominence.

                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Your argument here is pretty craptacular, since you're limiting the present number to a handful of years (and in only one of multiple locations where mass killings were taking place) to a timeframe nearly 2 orders of magnitude longer.
                      So longer a longer period of time to commit the atrocity makes it less of an atrocity? I could have picked the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire (23.4 M est dead, 13 years), the Inquisition (30-300K conservatively, with some claims in the millions), or any number of other wars that were from religious roots. The point is, there is no significant distinction between what men do in the name of god, and what men do without having it be in the name of a god. People in power sometimes do bad things; bad people in power do some very bad things.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        On a related note, I think the funniest moment in the Democrat primaries was when Hillary and Bernie were stumped by the question, "What's the difference between a Democrat and a socialist?"
                        Which was really strange since the head of the DNC at the time, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, had at the time been recently asked the same question leaving her stammering for an answer. And then shortly after that someone else[1] asked her and she still couldn't provide an answer.

                        The fact that her fumbling and bumbling was widely covered in the press ought to have provided a warning to other Democrats that they may be asked the same question so they ought to be prepared to provide an answer. The fact that neither Hillary or Bernie did is extremely odd unless they really can't explain any difference.








                        1. First by Chris Matthews on his MSNBC show and then 3 or 4 days later by Chuck Todd the current host of NBC's Meet the Press

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          So longer a longer period of time to commit the atrocity makes it less of an atrocity? I could have picked the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire (23.4 M est dead, 13 years), the Inquisition (30-300K conservatively, with some claims in the millions), or any number of other wars that were from religious roots. The point is, there is no significant distinction between what men do in the name of god, and what men do without having it be in the name of a god. People in power sometimes do bad things; bad people in power do some very bad things.
                          Wow. I am impressed by your deliberate misunderstanding - and it has to be deliberate. You took a sample of alleged religious violence over a long period of time, and compared it to a atheistic sample of violence over a small period of time which didn't even remotely cover atheistic violence over a 50-year period inclusive of that time, and still only managed to come up with a comparable number percentage-wise. Now you're stooping to "claims" in some sort of attempt to minimize atheist violence without even acknowledging its numbers.

                          Keep digging, eh?
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Wow. I am impressed by your deliberate misunderstanding - and it has to be deliberate. You took a sample of alleged religious violence over a long period of time, and compared it to a atheistic sample of violence over a small period of time which didn't even remotely cover atheistic violence over a 50-year period inclusive of that time, and still only managed to come up with a comparable number percentage-wise. Now you're stooping to "claims" in some sort of attempt to minimize atheist violence without even acknowledging its numbers.

                            Keep digging, eh?
                            OBP...there is nothing I can put forward in terms of numbers that will ever convince the religious right that the positions "religion is good and does comparably less evil" and "atheism is bad and has fostered on the world the worst atrocities in the history of mankind," are biased

                            In fact, atheism and theism are two different worldviews. They have both done very bad things - they have both done very good things. Most atheist see religions as "bad." Most theist see atheism as "bad."

                            In my experience, so long as a group is committed to the concept "we're better," facts are not really going to shake them loose of that perception.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              OBP...there is nothing I can put forward in terms of numbers that will ever convince the religious right that the positions "religion is good and does comparably less evil" and "atheism is bad and has fostered on the world the worst atrocities in the history of mankind," are biased
                              The question is phrased as who has done more violence, not who has done more bad. As a Christian I'd argue that more bad has been done in the name of religion because the majority of religious people in history have had non-JudeoChristian religions and their prostelyzing has been very, very bad for people's souls. But that's not the same as violence.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                                The question is phrased as who has done more violence, not who has done more bad. As a Christian I'd argue that more bad has been done in the name of religion because the majority of religious people in history have had non-JudeoChristian religions and their prostelyzing has been very, very bad for people's souls. But that's not the same as violence.
                                Violence...bad...they differ in degree only. And again, determining who is worse (on the scale of theistic/atheistic worldviews) is, IMO, an exercise in...well...stupidity. As we narrow the field to specific groups, perhaps better numbers can be arrived at. Outside of that, the discussion is largely a pointless one, IMO. It is an exercise in fluffing up one's own credentials, with little or no substance to the fluffing.

                                Atheists who claim religions have done more evil are on shaky ground. Theists who claim atheists have done more evil are on shaky ground. The entire debate is, IMO, a pointless one.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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