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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

    People kill - and wage war - and commit atrocities, whatever their beliefs may be. God has been the reason for many of these - but godless wars have also been common.
    Exactly, neither theistic beliefs nor atheistic beliefs alone can be blamed for the atrocities. The primary culprits have historically been totalitarian, ideological regimes...both religious and non-religious.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      Exactly, neither theistic beliefs nor atheistic beliefs alone can be blamed for the atrocities. The primary culprits have historically been totalitarian, ideological regimes...both religious and non-religious.
      And let's not forget Democratic Republics with a sense of Manifest Destiny. Trump often speaks nonsense, but one of the things he did (in an interview when asked about Putin being a killer) was to note that we kill people too. That was one thing I found myself nodding at. Of course, many (most?) were aghast at such an outrageous thing to say. I found it somewhat refreshing.

      Sometimes, we Americans put forward this sense of moral superiority that we only partially deserve. We could do with a little bit of soul searching. The U.S. have been the perpetrator of self-serving atrocities as well. Not on the same numerical scale as Khmer Rouge, but on a similar moral scale. We have promoted and financed and supported dictators and strong men when it suited or "interests," only to see them turn into human rights abusers on a grand scale.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest


        Pffft. What's a million or two people butchered.

        One person killed is a tragedy. A million people killed is a statistic.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
          Morals are just rules of behaviour and our rules of behaviour are grounded in our natural reciprocal instincts as a social species, certainly. They're hardly likely to be contrary to them.
          The fact that you haven't a clue how this destroys every notion of "atheist morality" is rather hilarious.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            We have promoted and financed and supported dictators and strong men when it suited or "interests," only to see them turn into human rights abusers on a grand scale.
            Any why did we do that Carp? Most of these thing happened in the context of the Cold War when we needed to choose between the lesser of two evils, like when we supported Russia and the Stalinists over Nazism. Later we supported right wing regimes over Communist insurgents. Hence, international Communism has been largely dismantled. And that is a good thing for us and the world.
            Last edited by seer; 05-26-2018, 11:12 AM.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              Any why did we do that Carp? Most of these thing happened in the context of the Cold War when we needed to choose between the lesser of two evils, like when we supported Russia and the Stalinists over Nazism. Later we supported right wing regimes over Communist insurgents. Hence, international Communism has been largely dismantled. And that is a good thing for us and the world.
              I was not expecting anything less than a defense, Seer.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I was not expecting anything less than a defense, Seer.
                Is anything I said untrue?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Is anything I said untrue?
                  Misleading, but not untrue. We allied with Stalinists to defeat Hitler - we didn't (to my knowledge) "support" them. However, we did work for regime change in countries where we felt "our interests" dominated, and supported (sometimes even trained) their strongmen (Goulart, Pinochet, Ceausescu, Rhee, Krimov, Noriega, etc.). The U.S. is not innocent on the world stage. On this point, Trump was spot on.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Misleading, but not untrue. We allied with Stalinists to defeat Hitler - we didn't (to my knowledge) "support" them. However, we did work for regime change in countries where we felt "our interests" dominated, and supported (sometimes even trained) their strongmen (Goulart, Pinochet, Ceausescu, Rhee, Krimov, Noriega, etc.). The U.S. is not innocent on the world stage. On this point, Trump was spot on.
                    Right, and we supported those strongmen why? What exactly were "our interests?" More often than not it was to stem the tide of communism, or to prevent the communists from acquiring valued natural resources. And that was a good thing for us and the world. But heck if we look at it from the evolutionary sense our group adapted, overcame and survived. And that is all that matters.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Right, and we supported those strongmen why? What exactly were "our interests?" More often than not it was to stem the tide of communism, or to prevent the communists from acquiring valued natural resources. And that was a good thing for us and the world. But heck if we look at it from the evolutionary sense our group adapted, overcame and survived. And that is all that matters.
                      Actually - it was often to protect our energy sources, or ensure access to some commodity we needed to maintain our way of life. And "stemming the tide of communism" is not exactly a noble purpose, IMO. Communism is a governing philosophy - democracy is another governing philosophy. Philosophies should rise or fall on their merits. Installing a brutal dictatorship that then commits horrendous atrocities on its own people is hardly an improvement to "communism" OR a way to promote democracy. Little wonder we have such a negative profile with so many countries. We arrogantly do what we want, where we want, replace entire governments, and then squeal like violated little piggies when someone has the audacity to "meddle with our elections."

                      On the flip side, we also pour out billions of dollars in (often poorly thought through) support for other countries. We rush to the aid of those in distress, and (occasionally) step in when atrocities are being committed. So we're not "all bad." We just have to be honest about our strengths AND our weaknesses.


                      Two things just struck me...

                      1) You are somewhere in New England. Anywhere near Northern VT? That's where I am.
                      2) Your avatar is a picture of a crusading knight...right? Odd choice, that...? Is that how you see yourself?
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-26-2018, 12:38 PM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Actually - it was often to protect our energy sources, or ensure access to some commodity we needed to maintain our way of life. And "stemming the tide of communism" is not exactly a noble purpose, IMO. Communism is a governing philosophy - democracy is another governing philosophy. Philosophies should rise or fall on their merits. Installing a brutal dictatorship that then commits horrendous atrocities on its own people is hardly an improvement to "communism" OR a way to promote democracy. Little wonder we have such a negative profile with so many countries. We arrogantly do what we want, where we want, replace entire governments, and then squeal like violated little piggies when someone has the audacity to "meddle with our elections."
                        Oh please now you are comparing Communism with Democracies?

                        On the flip side, we also pour out billions of dollars in (often poorly thought through) support for other countries. We rush to the aid of those in distress, and (occasionally) step in when atrocities are being committed. So we're not "all bad." We just have to be honest about our strengths AND our weaknesses.
                        And I'm saying that without the influence of the United States this would be a much darker world.


                        Two things just struck me...

                        1) You are somewhere in New England. Anywhere near Northern VT? That's where I am.
                        The hills of northwestern Connecticut.

                        2) Your avatar is a picture of a crusading knight...right? Odd choice, that...?
                        Being a former Marine, I tend to be too militaristic at times. And I don't think the Crusades were all wrong...
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Oh please now you are comparing Communism with Democracies?
                          Actually... I was noting they are both forms of government. I was not "comparing" them.

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          And I'm saying that without the influence of the United States this would be a much darker world.
                          I doubt you could substantiate that, or I could refute it, so it's a waste of time to engage on such observations. I also do not question that we have done good things. I simply believe we need to be willing to look at the bad we have done as well - or we are simply an arrogant country convinced of its own superiority.

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          The hills of northwestern Connecticut.
                          I'll remember that on my next trip to Rhode Island. A beer might be in the offing...

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Being a former Marine, I tend to be too militaristic at times. And I don't think the Crusades were all wrong...
                          First - thank you for your service.

                          Second - nothing is "all wrong." Nothing is either "all right." It is only when we are willing to look critically at a thing that we can truly discern the difference between the former and the latter.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I doubt you could substantiate that, or I could refute it, so it's a waste of time to engage on such observations. I also do not question that we have done good things. I simply believe we need to be willing to look at the bad we have done as well - or we are simply an arrogant country convinced of its own superiority.
                            Really, what would this world look like under largely Communist rule? And of course we are superior. We are the most innovative and powerful country in human history. Why do you hate your country so much?

                            I'll remember that on my next trip to Rhode Island. A beer might be in the offing...
                            I think if you and I get together it will take a few shots of Jagermeister...

                            First - thank you for your service.
                            Thank you...

                            Second - nothing is "all wrong." Nothing is either "all right." It is only when we are willing to look critically at a thing that we can truly discern the difference between the former and the latter.
                            Yes Carp, we all know our sins. There was saying "My Country right or wrong." I lost too may friends in an unpopular war (though I was not in country) to focus on those sins. In December of 72 we landed at the San Fransisco International airport. A plane with two hundred Marines, most (not me) combat vets, many walking wounded. There were protestors to meet us, they call us baby killers, spit on us, threw crap, etc... I can not abide those who run down this country...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Really, what would this world look like under largely Communist rule?
                              It's a pointless question. The world is not under threat of "living under communist rule."

                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              And of course we are superior. We are the most innovative and powerful country in human history. Why do you hate your country so much?
                              I'm not even going to grace that rather stupid question with an answer...

                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              I think if you and I get together it will take a few shots of Jagermeister...
                              Oh I'm pretty sure of that. I may get a hotel next door to the bar and focus on martinis

                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Thank you...

                              Yes Carp, we all know our sins. There was saying "My Country right or wrong." I lost too may friends in an unpopular war (though I was not in country) to focus on those sins. In December of 72 we landed at the San Fransisco International airport. A plane with two hundred Marines, most (not me) combat vets, many walking wounded. There were protestors to meet us, they call us baby killers, spit on us, threw crap, etc... I can not abide those who run down this country...
                              There is little doubt that the U.S. does not do all it can or should for our veterans. There is also no doubt that we have sent our young people to places and asked them to fight wars we should never have been engaged in. Unfortunately, that was taken out on the soldiers - rather than the people who sent them there. A military cannot function with a line of command. But it is wrong when we hold responsible those who follow the commands rather than those who issue them.

                              I am not a warrior. I never have been, and never will be. I am in awe of those who are, and grateful that they exist and make the freedoms I enjoy possible.

                              That will not blind me, however, to taking a critical eye to both our country and our leaders. I love this country - but love is not blindness. I know our country has done both marvelous things, and horrendous things. I can celebrate the marvelous, and criticize the horrendous. Doing the latter does not mean I hate my country.

                              And frankly, it is beneath you to suggest that someone willing to be critical about what our country has done in some circumstances "hate the country." The last thing our nation needs is blind allegiance.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                It's a pointless question. The world is not under threat of "living under communist rule."
                                Right, thanks mostly to us.


                                Oh I'm pretty sure of that. I may get a hotel next door to the bar and focus on martinis
                                I never had a martini. Are you James Bond...



                                There is little doubt that the U.S. does not do all it can or should for our veterans. There is also no doubt that we have sent our young people to places and asked them to fight wars we should never have been engaged in. Unfortunately, that was taken out on the soldiers - rather than the people who sent them there. A military cannot function with a line of command. But it is wrong when we hold responsible those who follow the commands rather than those who issue them.

                                I am not a warrior. I never have been, and never will be. I am in awe of those who are, and grateful that they exist and make the freedoms I enjoy possible.

                                That will not blind me, however, to taking a critical eye to both our country and our leaders. I love this country - but love is not blindness. I know our country has done both marvelous things, and horrendous things. I can celebrate the marvelous, and criticize the horrendous. Doing the latter does not mean I hate my country.

                                And frankly, it is beneath you to suggest that someone willing to be critical about what our country has done in some circumstances "hate the country." The last thing our nation needs is blind allegiance.
                                No, you just remind of the protestors, it has been that way for me since I returned from my tour of duty - and it will not change. If you want to call it blind allegiance, fine I plead guilty.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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