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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    look a little cloooseeeeerrrrrrr.......
    So in dozens of posts, I slipped once and included the word "special." I am

    Seriously guys - the content of my posts were pretty darned clear. I used the term "special" in this one post, but nowhere did I actually reference anything that is part of the special theory. We're picking nits here.

    But if it's important to you - yes, I made a mistake. My bad. If that threw people off in the discussion, I apologize.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2018, 01:35 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      So in dozens of posts, I slipped once and included the word "special." I am

      Seriously guys - the content of my posts were pretty darned clear. I used the term "special" in this one post, but nowhere did I actually reference anything that is part of the special theory. We're picking nits here.

      But if it's important to you - yes, I made a mistake. My bad. If that threw people off in the discussion, I apologize.
      My problem is that you keep arguing with me because I believe relative ethics are meaningless, like I am somehow in the wrong for doing so.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        So I went through the first two posts...and don't have time to double check it all. The two I checked said NOTHING about special relativity. I did refer to Einstein and to relativity in general, and every post was in reference to their being no "absolute position" or "absolute speed." General and Special relativity were never referenced or discussed.

        The definition of the "Theory of Relativity" is "a theory, formulated essentially by Albert Einstein, that all motion must be defined relative to a frame of reference and that space and time are relative, rather than absolute concepts: it consists of two principal parts." General and Special relativity are the two "principal parts" referred to in the definition. My discussion has been about the bolded part of the definition.


        Einstein's 'theory of relativity' IS the Special Theory of Relativity and later the General Theory. That's what it is. It is what you have been talking about. That you don't seem to know that is even more evidence that you don't understand what you are talking about. There is no 'theory of relativity' outside of the special and general theories when talking about Einstein.

        And since you can't be bothered to click on the references:

        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        .

        And special relativity is also a useful mechanism for understanding how relative/subjective morality actually functions. The two are analogous in multiple ways.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          So in dozens of posts, I slipped once and included the word "special." I am

          Seriously guys - the content of my posts were pretty darned clear. I used the term "special" in this one post, but nowhere did I actually reference anything that is part of the special theory. We're picking nits here.

          But if it's important to you - yes, I made a mistake. My bad. If that threw people off in the discussion, I apologize.
          You seem to think that Einstein had a regular "theory of relativity" and then a "special theory" that was an addition.

          No.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            You seem to think that Einstein had a regular "theory of relativity" and then a "special theory" that was an addition.

            No.
            To be fair, I did understand the point Carp was getting at, even if it wasn't technically correct.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              To be fair, I did understand the point Carp was getting at, even if it wasn't technically correct.
              I know too. My initial point was that he kept using Einstein incorrectly and was showing he didn't even understand his theory, so his analogy was not a good one. He said it was a "logical fallacy" to point that out. Then I come to find that he doesn't even know what theory he was talking about in the first place. It makes his argument even weaker. Then he tries to deny he was even using it.

              I find his excuses to be dishonest.

              Like I said, in Einstein's theory, there IS an absolute speed limit that everyone has to agree on no matter what speed they are moving at: The speed of light. Kinda messes up his whole "relative" speed analogy.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I know too. My initial point was that he kept using Einstein incorrectly and was showing he didn't even understand his theory, so his analogy was not a good one. He said it was a "logical fallacy" to point that out. Then I come to find that he doesn't even know what theory he was talking about in the first place. It makes his argument even weaker. Then he tries to deny he was even using it.

                I find his excuses to be dishonest.

                Like I said, in Einstein's theory, there IS an absolute speed limit that everyone has to agree on no matter what speed they are moving at: The speed of light. Kinda messes up his whole "relative" speed analogy.
                True, but I wouldn't call it dishonest, we all (well at least me) tend to get a little reckless in heated debates. Especially since it was two against one - and since it was you and me poor Carp didn't have a chance...
                Last edited by seer; 06-21-2018, 03:04 PM.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  True, but I wouldn't call it dishonest, we all (well at least me) tend to get a little reckless at in heated debates. Especially since it was two against one - and since it was you and me poor Carp didn't have a chance...
                  I apologize. It seems it was just more of him not knowing that "Einstein's theory of relativity" WAS the same thing as the "special theory of relativity"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    So in dozens of posts, I slipped once and included the word "special." I am

                    Seriously guys - the content of my posts were pretty darned clear. I used the term "special" in this one post, but nowhere did I actually reference anything that is part of the special theory. We're picking nits here.

                    But if it's important to you - yes, I made a mistake. My bad. If that threw people off in the discussion, I apologize.
                    If it helps, Since high school I have been all over anyone that tries to say Einsteins theory of Relativity has ANYTHING to say in relation to morals or standards being loosely defined or subjective. The only thing the two topics have in common is the word 'relative'.


                    Jim
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      If it helps, Since high school I have been all over anyone that tries to say Einsteins theory of Relativity has ANYTHING to say in relation to morals or standards being loosely defined or subjective. The only thing the two topics have in common is the word 'relative'.

                      Jim
                      Then we disagree. The two concepts are highly analogous. Not the special/general theories, mind you. Simply the observation that absolute position/motion are meaningless concepts.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        My problem is that you keep arguing with me because I believe relative ethics are meaningless, like I am somehow in the wrong for doing so.
                        I would say these statements are false:

                        - Relative/subjective morality is meaningless for everyone
                        - Relative/subjective morality has no meaning

                        I would say these statements are true:

                        - Relative/subjective morality is how all humans function.
                        - Relative/subjective moral norms are meaningful to those who derive them.
                        - Relative/subjective moral norms are meaningful to the communities that hold them in common.

                        And I'm not even sure I like the word "meaningful." When I say, "discrimination against the LGBTQ community is an immoral act," that sentence has clear meaning. If you understand it, then the sentence is meaningful. You may or may not agree with it, but you understand its meaning. So the entire use of "meaningful" is, IMO, problematic.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post


                          Einstein's 'theory of relativity' IS the Special Theory of Relativity and later the General Theory. That's what it is. It is what you have been talking about. That you don't seem to know that is even more evidence that you don't understand what you are talking about. There is no 'theory of relativity' outside of the special and general theories when talking about Einstein.

                          And since you can't be bothered to click on the references:
                          I've already responded to this.

                          However, I'm a little curious. Do you feel at all childish with the condescending emojis? You kind of come across that way...
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            I know too. My initial point was that he kept using Einstein incorrectly and was showing he didn't even understand his theory, so his analogy was not a good one. He said it was a "logical fallacy" to point that out. Then I come to find that he doesn't even know what theory he was talking about in the first place. It makes his argument even weaker. Then he tries to deny he was even using it.

                            I find his excuses to be dishonest.

                            Like I said, in Einstein's theory, there IS an absolute speed limit that everyone has to agree on no matter what speed they are moving at: The speed of light. Kinda messes up his whole "relative" speed analogy.
                            You do like to make ad hominem attacks, Sparko. That much I can say for you.

                            Oh well...on to the actual subject.

                            Although it was a error on my part to include "special" in that one post, because I was not looking at the entire theory of special relativity, if you actually read what Einstein put forward, the First Postulate of special relativity reads: "observers can never detect uniform motion except relative to other objects."

                            You are referring specifically to the Second Postulate, which reads, "Unlike the velocity of massive objects, the speed of light is a constant and is the same for all observers independent of their CONSTANT VELOCITY toward or away from the light source."

                            Einstein, as you correctly pointed out, did not originate the first postulate. It builds upon the works of others before him, most notably Newton. One source for this is here, but you can find countless others with a simple search.

                            So my language was sloppy, as you correctly noted. I separated out the First Postulate from the Special Theory and treated it as a base on which he built the Special Theory. Instead, he incorporated the concept IN the Special Theory as a postulate. Until I went looking, I have to admit I did not know that. And all of this is STILL irrelevant to the basic point being made: claiming a thing is meaningless solely on the basis of its relative/subjective nature is not a sustainable position.
                            Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2018, 03:55 PM.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              True, but I wouldn't call it dishonest, we all (well at least me) tend to get a little reckless in heated debates. Especially since it was two against one - and since it was you and me poor Carp didn't have a chance...
                              In your dreams...
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                I apologize. It seems it was just more of him not knowing that "Einstein's theory of relativity" WAS the same thing as the "special theory of relativity"
                                Apology accepted. No harm done.

                                The rest is responded to in my previous post.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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