Pope Says It OK To Be Gay?

[Cow Poke]

Exactly, and one wonders if that guy (kid at the time) was not raped all those years if he would be gay today.

That's exactly what I was thinking, and why I thought, in a weird way, the Pope is excusing the sexual abuse.

[Catholicity]

That's exactly what I was thinking, and why I thought, in a weird way, the Pope is excusing the sexual abuse.

While I'd still like to see confirmation on it, I'm not holding out much hope here. Next, the church to declare this one an antipope.

[seer]

While I'd still like to see confirmation on it, I'm not holding out much hope here. Next, the church to declare this one an antipope.

The thing is, this has made international news and no denial as yet... That speaks volumes...

[Terraceth]

So, we have a report of a private statement that we don't really know the exact context of and, even if being reported accurately, is fully in line with Catechism 2358.

Not really news when you get down to it. Not that misrepresenting or misquoting a pope's statements has ever stopped the media from going crazy whenever they get an opportunity to report on something "shocking" supposedly said by a pope.

[Catholicity]

So, we have a report of a private statement that we don't really know the exact context of and, even if being reported accurately, is fully in line with Catechism 2358.

Not really news when you get down to it. Not that misrepresenting or misquoting a pope's statements has ever stopped the media from going crazy whenever they get an opportunity to report on something "shocking" supposedly said by a pope.

No its not in line with 2358. 2358 points out that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, and that those who are, are called to fulfill God's will in their lives. That's a far cry to say "God made you this way" to say it's in line when that part of the Catechism states that homosexuality is disordered. It is disordered. The temptation to sin is the human condition and its part of our imperfect fallen nature. God didn't make us "imperfect" its part of our fallen self.....bear in mind having a propensity toward something doesn't mean we are actively committing a sin. But that's also a problem to say "God just created us that way. He did not. And that's where I have an issue. The Pope did go against centuries of church teaching.

[Terraceth]

Yeah, in a weird way, it's almost like he's minimalizing the abuse -- "it's ok, God made you that way", so maybe He made the priest that way, too.

Not sure how you arrive at that interpretation. As for the claim he's minimalizing the abuse, Francis recently got the various bishops who allegedly covered up the abuses to resign. Not sure how someone can claim he's "minimizing" it after taking what seems a relatively grand step against those allegedly culpable.

No its not in line with 2358. 2358 points out that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, and that those who are, are called to fulfill God's will in their lives. That's a far cry to say "God made you this way" to say it's in line when that part of the Catechism states that homosexuality is disordered. It is disordered. The temptation to sin is the human condition and its part of our imperfect fallen nature. God didn't make us "imperfect" its part of our fallen self.....bear in mind having a propensity toward something doesn't mean we are actively committing a sin. But that's also a problem to say "God just created us that way. He did not. And that's where I have an issue. The Pope did go against centuries of church teaching.

Oh, that was what people were having a problem with? I thought it was about the claims about the person in question being loved by God, hardly in opposition to that part of the catechism. If we're talking about the claim that someone was made by God that way, that's much more iffy, though (even if true) seems to have just been an off-the-cuff comment and thus not necessarily phrased the best.

Of course, that's assuming his statement is being reported accurately. I stick by my statement that based on past experience with the media making "shocking" claims about statements by a pope (which are generally done by taking things out of context, relying on secondhand information, or misrepresenting what they said), any media report on "shocking" statements made by a pope should generally be disregarded as likely misrepresented unless it was made on the record and we have the exact context. Actually, that's not a bad idea for reports on quotes from people in general.

[KingsGambit]

What did he mean by "gay"?

In his recent bestselling book on homosexuality, evangelical Preston Sprinkle insists that we should always ask what is meant by "gay" before answering these questions.

But, from an evangelical perspective, I don't know that I would have said "God made you like this". There probably is a genetic component to homosexuality in many cases, but a better approach would have been to say that God loves you too much to allow you to live in sin.

[One Bad Pig]

What did he mean by "gay"?

In his recent bestselling book on homosexuality, evangelical Preston Sprinkle insists that we should always ask what is meant by "gay" before answering these questions.

But, from an evangelical perspective, I don't know that I would have said "God made you like this". There probably is a genetic component to homosexuality in many cases, but a better approach would have been to say that God loves you too much to allow you to live in sin.

Down's Syndrome indubitably has a 'genetic component'; I think it's safe to say that genetic errors can be attributed to effects of the curse, not God's creation.

[KingsGambit]

Down's Syndrome indubitably has a 'genetic component'; I think it's safe to say that genetic errors can be attributed to effects of the curse, not God's creation.

It's difficult to argue that harmful mutations are a result of the Fall if you are not a YEC (which I'm not).

[Cow Poke]

Not sure how you arrive at that interpretation. As for the claim he's minimalizing the abuse, Francis recently got the various bishops who allegedly covered up the abuses to resign. Not sure how someone can claim he's "minimizing" it after taking what seems a relatively grand step against those allegedly culpable.

You're making my point - he's all over the place, and seems to say whatever makes him more likable to the masses.

[Cow Poke]

Down's Syndrome indubitably has a 'genetic component'; I think it's safe to say that genetic errors can be attributed to effects of the curse, not God's creation.

that

[Catholicity]

It's difficult to argue that harmful mutations are a result of the Fall if you are not a YEC (which I'm not).

Not necessarily. 'the fall' doesn't have to be thought of as entirely literal. That said things like The genetic division in trisomies are VERY different as they happen because of a fault during meiosis as opposed to something such as being gay which is closer related to the environment in which one is raised, hormonal issues (possibly) and early sexual experiences and has no genetic component despite all efforts to prove otherwise.

[KingsGambit]

Not necessarily. 'the fall' doesn't have to be thought of as entirely literal. That said things like The genetic division in trisomies are VERY different as they happen because of a fault during meiosis as opposed to something such as being gay which is closer related to the environment in which one is raised, hormonal issues (possibly) and early sexual experiences and has no genetic component despite all efforts to prove otherwise.

The point I'm getting at is that there were clearly natural disasters before the dawn of humanity (earthquakes, volcanoes, etc.) as well as genetic mutations, some of which were very harmful, so arguing as many Christians do that these were a result of the Fall is going to result in arguing for reverse causality, which I don't find plausible.

I know William Lane Craig made this exact point somewhere, and agreed that reverse causality was implausible, but I'm having trouble finding it on his website.

[Cerebrum123]

It's difficult to argue that harmful mutations are a result of the Fall if you are not a YEC (which I'm not).

One of many reasons I am a YEC.

[Catholicity]

You're making my point - he's all over the place, and seems to say whatever makes him more likable to the masses.

There are a number of faithful Catholics who aren't real happy with him right now for this reason. He's kind of a loose cannon on this stuff.