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NFL’s Proposed National Anthem Rules

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  • This is an area where I am much more libertarian than conservative.

    I don't like the players kneeling. Ideally they should stand. I think their reasons for protesting are dubious.

    But I definitely do NOT believe they should be punished in any way for such peaceful, unobtrusive, non-disruptive protests.

    As for the "It's a private business" thing -- I DON'T CARE. I favor rights of individuals to free expression above "property" rights.

    The fact that so many of my conservative friends support this sort of jingoistic tyranny is truly disheartening to me.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I guess this is just one of those where I just won't see eye to eye with the majority of the people. To me putting your hand over your heart and staring at a flag is quite obviously a worshipful action, but most Christians don't see it that way.
      I'm not quite there on the "anthem" thing, but I definitely have qualms about the "Pledge of Allegiance."
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
        Its not its respect for the fallen the sacrifices people make etc.
        Something someone who received five deferments for the call up to the Vietnam War would not know about.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Something someone who received five deferments for the call up to the Vietnam War would not know about.
          To be fair, the American attack on east asia, aka the Vietnam War, had nothing to do with keeping Americans safe. It's important to remember when it comes to US patriotism that America's "defense" force operates as an attack force, slaughtering people the world over and undermining democracies around the world and propping up dictators.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            I guess this is just one of those where I just won't see eye to eye with the majority of the people. To me putting your hand over your heart and staring at a flag is quite obviously a worshipful action, but most Christians don't see it that way.
            OK. This bothers me, but I held off responding, because I wanted to be sure I thought it through.

            Many of us who stand and salute the flag grew up at a time when our fathers and uncles fought in major wars against tyranny, and just at the dawn of the wars that, to me, are much less clear in their purpose and intent. I served in SE Asia, and have my own demons to deal with. My Dad was in the European Theater in WWII, and was being diverted to the South Pacific for the invasion of Japan, which, thankfully, never happened.

            But when I stand and salute the flag, it's not about "staring at a flag in worship". That really bothers me that it is trivialized that way. It's about the sacrifices made by so many throughout the history of our nation to give us the freedom we enjoy.

            When I stand at the flag draped casket of a fallen hero, particularly one of our WWII veterans, I am not there to "worship the flag" or the casket - I'm there to honor somebody who served his country because he so strongly believed in the freedom for which he fought.

            When I look at the flag, I no more "worship the flag" than I do "worship the cross" when I look at the cross while singing "When I survey the wondrous cross...." The cross is a very powerful symbol of He who died for me.

            I think I understand, though, why younger people, who didn't grow up in the shadow of "the Greatest Generation" have less reverence for the flag and our country's struggles. I have very unsettling feelings about Vietnam, and I was not in favor of the Gulf War.

            And I certainly don't look at the flag and think about abortion rights, because I understand that's one of those tragic things that happens when there is "freedom". I have the freedom to fight back, and I do. I have the freedom to work in our local pregnancy center, and I do.

            So, no, this Christian doesn't see "putting my hand over my heart and staring at a flag" as worship of the flag, any more than I see kneeling at a cross as worship of the cross.

            And this isn't a "shame on you", KG -- it's me beginning to realize that younger people don't see the same thing as I do when I look at our flag. And that's truly very sad.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              OK. This bothers me, but I held off responding, because I wanted to be sure I thought it through.

              Many of us who stand and salute the flag grew up at a time when our fathers and uncles fought in major wars against tyranny, and just at the dawn of the wars that, to me, are much less clear in their purpose and intent. I served in SE Asia, and have my own demons to deal with. My Dad was in the European Theater in WWII, and was being diverted to the South Pacific for the invasion of Japan, which, thankfully, never happened.

              But when I stand and salute the flag, it's not about "staring at a flag in worship". That really bothers me that it is trivialized that way. It's about the sacrifices made by so many throughout the history of our nation to give us the freedom we enjoy.

              When I stand at the flag draped casket of a fallen hero, particularly one of our WWII veterans, I am not there to "worship the flag" or the casket - I'm there to honor somebody who served his country because he so strongly believed in the freedom for which he fought.

              When I look at the flag, I no more "worship the flag" than I do "worship the cross" when I look at the cross while singing "When I survey the wondrous cross...." The cross is a very powerful symbol of He who died for me.

              I think I understand, though, why younger people, who didn't grow up in the shadow of "the Greatest Generation" have less reverence for the flag and our country's struggles. I have very unsettling feelings about Vietnam, and I was not in favor of the Gulf War.

              And I certainly don't look at the flag and think about abortion rights, because I understand that's one of those tragic things that happens when there is "freedom". I have the freedom to fight back, and I do. I have the freedom to work in our local pregnancy center, and I do.

              So, no, this Christian doesn't see "putting my hand over my heart and staring at a flag" as worship of the flag, any more than I see kneeling at a cross as worship of the cross.

              And this isn't a "shame on you", KG -- it's me beginning to realize that younger people don't see the same thing as I do when I look at our flag. And that's truly very sad.
              In general, I am in agreement with you. My hesitance these days to say the pledge, fly the flag, or stand for its waving is that I am increasingly NOT proud of this country and what it stands for. I do value and honor the people who have served and continue to serve in its defense, but I do not see much "honor" in this country anymore.

              And I do believe it becomes "flag worship" when the symbol itself becomes more important than the people and sacrifice it represents. If someone wishes to kneel at the ceremony in protest, that is an expression of their views. It is, to me, an act of patriotism to say, "this country is not as good as it should be - and needs to be better." If someone wants to burn the flag in protest, I do not place the symbol above what it represents: the freedom to do that very thing.

              My objection to the NFL thing was never about the NFL not having the right to put whatever policy in place they wish. It was about all the people boycotting the games because some players were exercising their voices, and using the power of the economy to silence them in that venue.

              As I write that, I find myself remembering my position on the Laura Ingraham boycott. The two positions seem inconsistent. It is possible they are. I have to give that some thought...
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                And I do believe it becomes "flag worship" when the symbol itself becomes more important than the people and sacrifice it represents.
                In the pledge, we actually say "and to the Republic for which it stands".. you know that.

                If someone wishes to kneel at the ceremony in protest......
                Only have a quick minute to respond, so let me say again - this wasn't about kneeling originally. While everybody else was standing, some chose to "sit it out". It's pretty well known that sitting during the playing of the anthem is a huge insult to what the flag represents.

                It was only after the backlash that it changed to all this "reverently kneeling" narrative.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  My objection to the NFL thing was never about the NFL not having the right to put whatever policy in place they wish. It was about all the people boycotting the games because some players were exercising their voices, and using the power of the economy to silence them in that venue....
                  OK, another quick moment -- nobody was "silencing them in that venue", they just had a lot less people to hear and/or see their poorly orchestrated protest.

                  And, yeah, I caught your comment about boycotting.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    Paying heed = obeying laws, paying our taxes.
                    Also, respecting the authorities as appointed by God (Rom. 13).
                    It doesn't mean we stand up and participate in flag worship. I find it impossible to imagine the early Christians participating in a Roman flag ceremony.
                    If I imagined it was flag worship, I wouldn't be doing it.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Also, respecting the authorities as appointed by God (Rom. 13).

                      If I imagined it was flag worship, I wouldn't be doing it.
                      I interpret respect as according and acknowledging their role in society. I suspect this is what Paul meant because the greater context seems to be addressing outright rebellion against the rule of law.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • To add: if we interpreted respect in the literal American sense there, then the withering criticism by Christians on TWeb of politicians of *insert disliked party here* would evidence lack of orthopraxy.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          So this has apparently been adopted - and I have to wonder what the reaction from the right is. For a while now I've been listening to how the left squelches free speech and adopts a fascist attitude to those who want to say things the left does not want to hear. Now, we have an example of something the right does not want to hear - and people are going to be fined if they express their views.

                          So.... new rules because now it's something the right doesn't want to hear?
                          I have no problem with an employer telling his employees how to conduct themselves on the job, and this seems like a reasonable solution to a problem that was costing owners and the NFL a lot of money. Those who do not wish to show respect to their flag and country can stay off the field until the anthem is over. They should just be grateful that they still have a cushy, high-paying job.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            In the pledge, we actually say "and to the Republic for which it stands".. you know that.
                            Yes... I do... but that is what I actually would pledge to...not to the flag...

                            And it also says "under god."

                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Only have a quick minute to respond, so let me say again - this wasn't about kneeling originally. While everybody else was standing, some chose to "sit it out". It's pretty well known that sitting during the playing of the anthem is a huge insult to what the flag represents.

                            It was only after the backlash that it changed to all this "reverently kneeling" narrative.
                            I don't give a flying fig what it was "originally." If it still was what it was "originally," I'd probably be speaking out against what the young men are doing. It's not longer what it was "originally." You do remember that our nation excluded women from the vote "originally," right? Many things start out wrong, and then turn a corner.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Also, respecting the authorities as appointed by God (Rom. 13).

                              If I imagined it was flag worship, I wouldn't be doing it.
                              While, as CP noted, the pledge says, "and to the Republic..." it IS an "and." It starts "I pledge allegiance the flag." I do not pledge allegiance to a colored strip of cloth. That IS flag worship. If the pledge said, "I pledge allegiance, to the Republic of the United States of America, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all," that is a pledge ALL could say with gratitude and honor. When you insert "to the flag," you make it "flag worship." When you insert "under god," you make it divisive.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                While, as CP noted, the pledge says, "and to the Republic..." it IS an "and." It starts "I pledge allegiance the flag." I do not pledge allegiance to a colored strip of cloth. That IS flag worship. If the pledge said, "I pledge allegiance, to the Republic of the United States of America, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all," that is a pledge ALL could say with gratitude and honor. When you insert "to the flag," you make it "flag worship." When you insert "under god," you make it divisive.
                                You should start your own country. You could call it Carpland!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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