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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Al Mohler: God's judgement is upon the Southern Baptist Convention
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Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIt does seem rather over the top, particularly as I hadn't heard anything at all about this aside from the possibility of Patterson stepping down.
*Again, not trying to minimize what happened, or the really sloppy way in which it was pretty much "swept under the rug"The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat's what's weird - that he portrays it as "all over the headlines" (or whatever) when even my denominational leader friends (checked with them overnight) were unaware. It's like "hey, let me bring a glaring spotlight on this, blow it out of proportion*, and denounce it in the strongest terms possible".
*Again, not trying to minimize what happened, or the really sloppy way in which it was pretty much "swept under the rug"
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostMohler has gotten a lot more "political" over the years. Maybe this is what they call "virtue signalling"?
It's something that has long concerned me about my SBC....
We have "denominational leader" positions, starting at the "associational level" (group of churches in local geographic area) and going all the way to president of the convention. I have been, on various occasions, the president of our area or association. When my term was over, I backed off - but in all cases continued as pastor of my own congregation.
The association has a paid "area missionary" or "director of missions", who is almost always a pastor who has "advanced" to this leadership position. This requires that he leave 'pastoring a church' for that period of time, and it's rare they ever go back to pastoring, except in retirement.
From there, that guy might become a regional or state denominational employee, or even a national 'denominational leader'. And, like all such things, it's 'politics'.
To me, it's more like "leaving the flock" to serve in a position of authority or recognition, and the type of person drawn to that is, sadly, often somebody looking to feather their own nest.
In some cases, it's like a guy "couldn't make it as a pastor", so he entered "denominational life" as a paid employee.
While that's not necessarily the path Mohler took, it does seem that as he "rose through the ranks", he became more political.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK, here's the deal....
It's something that has long concerned me about my SBC....
We have "denominational leader" positions, starting at the "associational level" (group of churches in local geographic area) and going all the way to president of the convention. I have been, on various occasions, the president of our area or association. When my term was over, I backed off - but in all cases continued as pastor of my own congregation.
The association has a paid "area missionary" or "director of missions", who is almost always a pastor who has "advanced" to this leadership position. This requires that he leave 'pastoring a church' for that period of time, and it's rare they ever go back to pastoring, except in retirement.
From there, that guy might become a regional or state denominational employee, or even a national 'denominational leader'. And, like all such things, it's 'politics'.
To me, it's more like "leaving the flock" to serve in a position of authority or recognition, and the type of person drawn to that is, sadly, often somebody looking to feather their own nest.
In some cases, it's like a guy "couldn't make it as a pastor", so he entered "denominational life" as a paid employee.
While that's not necessarily the path Mohler took, it does seem that as he "rose through the ranks", he became more political.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostInteresting. Orthodoxy is probably somewhat unique in that its parish priests generally aren't qualified to take the administrative position of bishop (because bishops can't be married, and most priests are). Instead, bishops are usually drawn from the ranks of priest-monks who have spent their adult life in a monastery. While a bishop usually spends quite a bit of time away from his cathedral, he usually leads the service wherever he is and preaches the homily.
Several years ago (more like 20) we had a "director of missions" who had been a pastor, and THAT guy truly was, in every sense of the word, a "pastor to the pastors", and worked tirelessly to support and encourage and coordinate... he was so clearly "not about me" but "about the Kingdom". I miss Harold.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK, here's the deal....
It's something that has long concerned me about my SBC....
We have "denominational leader" positions, starting at the "associational level" (group of churches in local geographic area) and going all the way to president of the convention. I have been, on various occasions, the president of our area or association. When my term was over, I backed off - but in all cases continued as pastor of my own congregation.
The association has a paid "area missionary" or "director of missions", who is almost always a pastor who has "advanced" to this leadership position. This requires that he leave 'pastoring a church' for that period of time, and it's rare they ever go back to pastoring, except in retirement.
From there, that guy might become a regional or state denominational employee, or even a national 'denominational leader'. And, like all such things, it's 'politics'.
To me, it's more like "leaving the flock" to serve in a position of authority or recognition, and the type of person drawn to that is, sadly, often somebody looking to feather their own nest.
In some cases, it's like a guy "couldn't make it as a pastor", so he entered "denominational life" as a paid employee.
While that's not necessarily the path Mohler took, it does seem that as he "rose through the ranks", he became more political.
I have met Mohler a few times. He used to come to my old church and teach classes (about 15 years ago) and he seemed to be a pretty nice, normal fellow back then. But I think that over the years as he gained more "notoriety" he has let the politics of it all influence him more than it should. I believe he was also on the wrong side of the whole mess Mike Licona was in and sided with Geisler. That disappointed me greatly and he lost a lot of respect in my eyes.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI have met Mohler a few times. He used to come to my old church and teach classes (about 15 years ago) and he seemed to be a pretty nice, normal fellow back then. But I think that over the years as he gained more "notoriety" he has let the politics of it all influence him more than it should. I believe he was also on the wrong side of the whole mess Mike Licona was in and sided with Geisler. That disappointed me greatly and he lost a lot of respect in my eyes.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post[ATTACH=CONFIG]27970[/ATTACH]
Hey, that's ME in the white shirt!!!!
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYou're shorter than I rememberedThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I've been vaguely aware of this topic for a couple of weeks, only because I follow "Christians for Biblical Equality" on Facebook.
Now it has caught the attention of The Daily Wire.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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The chairman of SWBTS released a statement with additional details about the alleged rape incident in 2003, if you can stomach them. It's really bad.
https://swbts.edu/news/releases/stat...2bgmM.facebook"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSomething about the way Mohler presents this troubles me, and I can't figure out why. It's like he's trying too hard to distance himself from #MeToo, or trying to hard to be sure he condemns this....
I really don't get that the whole of the SBC is under the judgment of God because of Patterson's moral failure, or even the really poor manner in which this appears to have been handled. I personally know both Mohler and Patterson. This doesn't sound like Mohler at all, but as I said earlier, the last few times (over maybe the last 10 years or so) I've really thought Patterson was "losing it".
I think maybe, because Patterson (and Judge Pressler) were instrumental in getting the SBC back on track from our liberal drift, Mohler thinks he has to be especially hard on "us" (the SBC) to... that part I can't figure.
“”We thought this was a Roman Catholic problem. The unbiblical requirement of priestly celibacy and the organized conspiracy of silence within the hierarchy helped to explain the cesspool of child sex abuse that has robbed the Roman Catholic Church of so much of its moral authority. When people said that Evangelicals had a similar crisis coming, it didn’t seem plausible — even to me. I have been president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for twenty-five years. I did not see this coming.”
Those who make much of the faults of others (real or supposed) and are blind to their own shortcomings, are setting themselves up for a fall. “This“ is a human problem, and treating it polemically, as though it were confined to particular forms of religion, is anything but helpful or healing.”
I still think that. As a member of a Church which has had, in very recent years, a large number of very well-publicised cases of pastoral and clerical paedophilia, one cannot but sympathise. What is so painful, is that in all likelihood, human nature being what it is, members of the SBC probably thought exactly what Mohler says he used to think: we are different from those Catholics, so, those evils can’t happen here. The damage done to the SBC and to its ability to witness to the transforming grace of Christ, hurts all Christians. But equally, perhaps these grave evils can be overruled to bring us closer together.
My impression from Mohler’s words - for I know almost nothing of him - is that this has hit him extremely hard. That deserves sympathy, surely ?Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 06-05-2018, 09:24 PM.
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I don't understand what his supposed sin is. Not telling the police that someone accused someone of rape fifteen years ago? Assuming it really happened, there was nothing stopping the victim from going to the police herself.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostI don't understand what his supposed sin is. Not telling the police that someone accused someone of rape fifteen years ago? Assuming it really happened, there was nothing stopping the victim from going to the police herself.
I am totally unsurprised that you of all people are coming out of the woodwork to defend this guy."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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