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Al Mohler: God's judgement is upon the Southern Baptist Convention

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  • #31
    I cannot fathom why it would be his duty to report something to the police that he did not witness, especially if he didn't even believe the accusation was true. Are we to baby our women so much that we assume their rape accusations are true when they themselves aren't even brave enough to make them? Let the girl go to the police.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I have absolutely no idea what this is about.

      This part, in particular, baffles me...


      Each SBC Church is autonomous, and does not take marching orders from the SBC.

      So, what "reports have come out in the last month?"
      I still don't know what "America’s largest evangelical denomination has been in the headlines day after day." is all about. I don't see much in the news at all.

      However, our Annual Meeting is next week - it will be the first one in ages I will not be attending due to other commitments - but it appears this issue will explode on the scene....

      The Southern Baptist Convention, the country's largest evangelical denomination, is headed for a showdown over its treatment of women that could not only have far-reaching ramifications for the church but also influence the broader secular #MeToo movement.

      At its annual meeting next week in Dallas, delegates called "messengers" will decide whether to approve a resolution acknowledging that, throughout the church's history, male leaders and members of the church "wronged women, abused women, silenced women, objectified women."

      "The #MeToo moment has come to American evangelicals," Albert Mohler, president of the flagship Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote last month. "And I am called to deal with it as a Christian, as a minister of the Gospel, as a seminary and college president, and as a public leader."


      It will be interesting to see how the media covers this, as, in the past, I've attended the meetings, then watched the news that night, and wondered "where in the world did they get THAT?!?!?!" Being in the meeting, and hearing about on TV can be two really different experiences.

      It will be interesting.
      Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-09-2018, 03:33 PM.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        I still don't know what "America’s largest evangelical denomination has been in the headlines day after day." is all about. I don't see much in the news at all.

        However, our Annual Meeting is next week - it will be the first one in ages I will not be attending due to other commitments - but it appears this issue will explode on the scene....

        The Southern Baptist Convention, the country's largest evangelical denomination, is headed for a showdown over its treatment of women that could not only have far-reaching ramifications for the church but also influence the broader secular #MeToo movement.

        At its annual meeting next week in Dallas, delegates called "messengers" will decide whether to approve a resolution acknowledging that, throughout the church's history, male leaders and members of the church "wronged women, abused women, silenced women, objectified women."

        "The #MeToo moment has come to American evangelicals," Albert Mohler, president of the flagship Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote last month. "And I am called to deal with it as a Christian, as a minister of the Gospel, as a seminary and college president, and as a public leader."


        It will be interesting to see how the media covers this, as, in the past, I've attended the meetings, then watched the news that night, and wondered "where in the world did they get THAT?!?!?!" Being in the meeting, and hearing about on TV can be two really different experiences.

        It will be interesting.
        I'm more than a little uncomfortable with the wording in your quote regarding the resolution. It makes the abuse sound typical/systematic.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #34
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          I'm more than a little uncomfortable with the wording in your quote regarding the resolution. It makes the abuse sound typical/systematic.
          That struck me, too - it's almost like a poison pill thing --- people would have to vote no on account of that very thing, then it would hit the fan "Southern Baptists refuse to acknowledge....." or whatever.

          I kinda sounds like a setup.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Does the phrase "the church's history" refer specifically to the SBC or to Christianity as a whole? If the latter, I think it would be difficult to deny it's true. If the former, I'm not in position to say.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              Does the phrase "the church's history" refer specifically to the SBC or to Christianity as a whole? If the latter, I think it would be difficult to deny it's true. If the former, I'm not in position to say.
              I haven't actually seen the proposed resolution.

              The way this NORMALLY works is that people (messengers) will give their proposed resolutions in writing to the Resolutions Committee, and the Resolutions Committee will work with the author on the wording, make sure it's compliant with Rules of Order, etc.....

              Last year, the media reported that the Convention failed to pass a resolution condemning the Alt-Right - what they failed to explain was that the resolution itself was a bit 'over the top' in language - and there were some parliamentary problems, as well. I was there - everybody in the hall wanted to support the resolution, but not as it was written. There were several unofficial voice votes, and it was unanimous that we wanted to condemn the alt-right, but wanted to do it without the unnecessarily provocative language in the proposed resolution. After the Resolution Committee convinced the author to revise his resolution, it passed unanimously.

              I'm concerned a similar thing will happen here. There needs to be at least a reasonable hope that a proposed resolution would pass, or anybody could make any kind of nutball resolution and we'd be all night rejecting them.

              Still looking into this.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                Does the phrase "the church's history" refer specifically to the SBC or to Christianity as a whole? If the latter, I think it would be difficult to deny it's true. If the former, I'm not in position to say.
                I'm fairly certain that they're referring specifically to the SBC. Historically, the SBC has not presumed to speak for all of Christianity.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  I'm fairly certain that they're referring specifically to the SBC. Historically, the SBC has not presumed to speak for all of Christianity.
                  Yeah, agreed - it's just odd that it refers to "the Church" rather than "the Convention". Since we're pretty stubborn that each Church is autonomous....
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    I'm more than a little uncomfortable with the wording in your quote regarding the resolution. It makes the abuse sound typical/systematic.
                    I'm not sure it concedes that much. The way I read it is just an acknowledgement that of the multitude of SBC churches over the years, there have been some bad apples. The SBC conceded a lot about its past in the 1995 statement about racism (not to mention its more recent statement condemning the alt-right), but I don't see anybody holding that statement against them.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I wasn't there, for the first time in ages, but it sounds like the Annual Meeting of the SBC was amazingly calm.

                      SBC resolutions affirm women, denounce abuse

                      DALLAS (BP) -- Messengers to the 2018 Southern Baptist Convention affirmed the dignity and worth of women, denounced all forms of abuse and called for sexual purity among Christian leaders in adopting 16 resolutions Tuesday (June 12).

                      Passage of the resolutions on women, abuse and pastoral purity by nearly unanimous votes late in the afternoon session came after months of disclosures of sexual abuse and misconduct by male leaders had rocked Southern Baptist and other evangelical churches and institutions.


                      The full "Resolution 2" can be found here - http://www.sbcannualmeeting.net/sbc18/resolutions

                      WHEREAS, God has created every person—male and female—in His own image and with equal value and dignity (Genesis 1:26–27); and

                      WHEREAS, God abhors violence against the weak and defenseless and calls His people to defend the hurt and oppressed (Psalm 82:4), to stand for justice (Psalm 82:3; Proverbs 31:8–9), and to deliver victims of abuse from the hands of their oppressors (Proverbs 6:17; 24:10–12); and

                      WHEREAS, The Baptist Faith and Message says that “We should work to provide for the orphaned, the needy, the abused, the aged, the helpless, and the sick” (Article XV); and

                      WHEREAS, Abuse can be defined as any act or conscious failure to act resulting in imminent risk, serious injury, death, physical or emotional or sexual harm, or exploitation of another person; and

                      WHEREAS, Current cultural trends have opened the door for victims to voice courageously their plight and seek justice; and

                      WHEREAS, We deplore, apologize, and ask for forgiveness for failures to protect the abused, failures that have occurred in evangelical churches and ministries, including such failures within our own denomination; and

                      WHEREAS, God has designed marriage “to reveal the union between Christ and His church and to provide for the man and the woman in marriage the framework for intimate companionship” (The Baptist Faith and Message, Article XVIII); and

                      WHEREAS, Biblical headship blesses, honors, and protects wives and children and does not require them to submit to sin or to abuse (Ephesians 5:25–29; Colossians 3:18; 1 Peter 3:7; 5:3); and

                      WHEREAS, The biblical teaching on relationships between men and women neither supports nor fosters, but rather prevents and condemns, abuse (Mark 12:31; Romans 13:10; Ephesians 4:32); and

                      WHEREAS, God ordains civil government as His servant to us for good (Romans 13:4) and intends for us “to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God” (The Baptist Faith and Message, Article XVII); and

                      WHEREAS, Abuse is not only a sin but is also a destructive evil that distorts and disrupts the marriage covenant and the entire family and is a hallmark of the devil which must not be tolerated in the Christian community; now, therefore, be it

                      RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Dallas, Texas, June 12–13, 2018, condemn all forms of abuse and repudiate with a unified voice all abusive behavior as unquestionably sinful and under the just condemnation of our Holy God; and be it further

                      RESOLVED, That we acknowledge that spousal abuse dishonors the marriage covenant and fundamentally blasphemes the relationship between Christ and the church; and be it further

                      RESOLVED, That we strongly urge abuse victims to contact civil authorities, separate from their abusers, and seek protection, care, and support from fellow Christians and civil authorities; and be it further

                      RESOLVED, That we extend compassion and support to all persons encountering the injustice of abuse, being careful to remind the abused that such injustice is undeserved and not a result of personal guilt or fault; and be it further

                      RESOLVED, That we call on all persons perpetrating and enabling abuse to repent and to confess their sin to Jesus Christ and to church authorities and to confess their crimes to civil authorities; and be it further

                      RESOLVED, That we implore all persons to act decisively on matters of abuse, to intervene on behalf of the abused, to ensure their safety, to report allegations of abuse to civil authorities according to the laws of their state, and to pursue church discipline against impenitent abusers; and be it further

                      RESOLVED, That we encourage leaders in our churches and Southern Baptist Convention entities to be faithful examples, through their words and actions, and to speak against the sin of all forms of abuse; and be it further

                      RESOLVED, That we call on pastors and ministry leaders to foster safe environments in which abused persons may both recognize the reprehensible nature of their abuse and reveal such abuse to pastors and ministry leaders in safety and expectation of being believed and protected; and be it further

                      RESOLVED, That church and ministry leaders have an obligation to implement policies and practices that protect against and confront any form of abuse; and be it finally

                      RESOLVED, That we uphold the dignity of all human beings as image-bearers of God and the responsibility of all Christians to seek the welfare of the abused.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The other day, I was thinking about how often people still accuse the SBC of racism. The SBC actually has higher numbers of black congregants than most other Protestant congregations that aren't specifically black. However, historically speaking, it is accurate... but is this any different from how people (yes, including here) still bring up the past in tying the Democratic Party to racism? If any racial issue comes up, inevitably somebody will post a long list of racist actions from Jim Crow era Democrats. Just yesterday, somebody invoked the 1800s to "prove" this point. In both cases, it's not the same group of people.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          The other day, I was thinking about how often people still accuse the SBC of racism. The SBC actually has higher numbers of black congregants than most other Protestant congregations that aren't specifically black. However, historically speaking, it is accurate... but is this any different from how people (yes, including here) still bring up the past in tying the Democratic Party to racism? If any racial issue comes up, inevitably somebody will post a long list of racist actions from Jim Crow era Democrats. Just yesterday, somebody invoked the 1800s to "prove" this point. In both cases, it's not the same group of people.
                          Linking Democrats to historic racism is hard to avoid when you consider that they had a former KKK kleagle and Exalted Cyclops in the U.S. Senate until his death in 2010 (a bit past the 1800s). A man who was still using the n-word in public interviews in the 1990s after which his party reacted a couple months later by honoring him by making him President pro tempore[1]. And was praised by Hillary Clinton as "her mentor" and by Senator Chris Dodd[2] who proclaimed that this member of the KKK would have been a great leader during the Civil War. He didn't say for which side









                          1. the second-highest-ranking official of the United States Senate who is third in the line of succession to the presidency, after the vice president and the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and who presides over Senate sessions

                          2. who lost by just one vote to Tom Daschle for the position of Senate Majority Leader, became General Chairman of the Democratic National Committee and also ran for president in 2008

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Linking Democrats to historic racism is hard to avoid when you consider that they had a former KKK kleagle and Exalted Cyclops in the U.S. Senate until his death in 2010 (a bit past the 1800s). A man who was still using the n-word in public interviews in the 1990s after which his party reacted a couple months later by honoring him by making him President pro tempore[1]. And was praised by Hillary Clinton as "her mentor" and by Senator Chris Dodd[2] who proclaimed that this member of the KKK would have been a great leader during the Civil War. He didn't say for which side









                            1. the second-highest-ranking official of the United States Senate who is third in the line of succession to the presidency, after the vice president and the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and who presides over Senate sessions

                            2. who lost by just one vote to Tom Daschle for the position of Senate Majority Leader, became General Chairman of the Democratic National Committee and also ran for president in 2008
                            But you could say the same for the SBC. Some of the "offenders" are still around there as well. But neither organization is parading racially offensive views at this point in time (maybe except for affirmative action). It strikes me as a tendentious line of argumentation. You can certainly find many old politicians who have some clunkers in their past (Joe Arpaio claimed the KKK's support was a "badge of honor" fairly recently even) but are they truly representative of the party as a whole at this point?
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              The other day, I was thinking about how often people still accuse the SBC of racism. The SBC actually has higher numbers of black congregants than most other Protestant congregations that aren't specifically black. However, historically speaking, it is accurate... but is this any different from how people (yes, including here) still bring up the past in tying the Democratic Party to racism? If any racial issue comes up, inevitably somebody will post a long list of racist actions from Jim Crow era Democrats. Just yesterday, somebody invoked the 1800s to "prove" this point. In both cases, it's not the same group of people.
                              When we elected Fred Luter as our President, we caught all kinds of flak about him being a "token black" or a publicity stunt, or he was an Uncle Tom.... He was elected unopposed, which doesn't often happen except in the second term of a President. And, at the risk of being accused of "I have some black friends", I've actually had two associate pastors who were black, and my current primary "fill in" is black.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                When we elected Fred Luter as our President, we caught all kinds of flak about him being a "token black" or a publicity stunt, or he was an Uncle Tom.... He was elected unopposed, which doesn't often happen except in the second term of a President. And, at the risk of being accused of "I have some black friends", I've actually had two associate pastors who were black, and my current primary "fill in" is black.
                                That's interesting. What gave me this thought was when the incoming SBC president claimed that they have higher numbers of black membership than all the mainline denominations (which tend to make a bigger deal about racial issues). I come from a mainline background, and I think the only black pastor at the several such churches I remember was an existing pastor who moved here from Africa. It bothers me since I think churches should look like a cross section of society. In his Bible book, James assumes that a church will have both rich and poor members worshipping side by side, for example.
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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