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Cogito ergo sum

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The Philosophy Of Infanticide

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    Not just one of many seminaries, the biggest and oldest and most prestigious: "The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS), in Louisville, Kentucky, is the oldest of the six seminaries affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC). The seminary was founded in 1859 at Greenville, South Carolina, where it was at first lodged on the campus of Furman University. After being closed during the Civil War, it moved in 1877 to a newly built campus in downtown Louisville and later moved to its current location in the Crescent Hill neighbourhood. For more than fifty years Southern has been one of the world's largest theological seminaries, with a current FTE (full-time equivalent) enrolment of over 3,300 students. -"Annual of the 2015 Southern Baptist Convention" (PDF). p. 217.
    Yeah, I know all that, actually attended there a few semesters, but there you are doing it again --- building this up like this is some major issue because he's president of ONE of our seminaries. Like the history of that seminary makes a big difference.

    You are entertaining, I'll give you that.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Yeah, I know all that, actually attended there a few semesters,
      So why are you brushing off Southern Baptist Theological Seminary as just one of many, when it is the biggest and oldest and the most prestigious? Albert Mohler is its president and has been for many years yet you dismiss him as “unhinged”. Come now! He says that Prior to Roe v. Wade in 1973, Evangelicals were confused and uncertain about the question of abortion. Is he wrong?

      but there you are doing it again --- building this up like this is some major issue because he's president of ONE of our seminaries. Like the history of that seminary makes a big difference.
      I have quoted several reputable senior members of the Southern Baptist Convention, including W. A. Criswell, the Southern Baptist Convention’s former president and others. It was Paul Weyrich and Jerry Falwell, who between them opportunistically turned ‘abortions’ into the political issue it has become today. This is a recent phenomenon. Until the late 1960s and early 1970s Evangelicals widely believed the bible says life begins at birth (as the Jews have traditionally believed) and supported much looser abortion policies.
      Last edited by Tassman; 06-17-2018, 11:39 PM.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        So why are you brushing off Southern Baptist Theological Seminary as just one of many...
        Tass... you are the master of exaggeration. First, I didn't say it was "one of many" - I said one of six, which is the truth. And the importance of this particular seminary in history does not enhance the opinion of one man who is not a spokesperson for the SBC.

        You remind me a lot of Maxwell Smart being held at gunpoint....
        Max: "Would you believe, at this very moment, outside those walls, is a WHOLE COMPANY of US Marines, Seal Team Six, 101st Airborne Division, the entire Israeli Defense Force, the French Foreign Legion and... ROBOCOP?!?!?!?!"

        Bad guy: No

        Max: (several versions later) "Would you believe.. a mean kid with a squirt gun?"

        You are entertaining, Tass.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          So why are you brushing off Southern Baptist Theological Seminary as just one of many, when it is the biggest and oldest and the most prestigious? Albert Mohler is its president and has been for many years yet you dismiss him as “unhinged”. Come now! He says that Prior to Roe v. Wade in 1973, Evangelicals were confused and uncertain about the question of abortion. Is he wrong?
          And he was a key player in the Southern Baptist Convention Conservative resurgence, but none of this makes him the spokesperson for the SBC. That is just not how it is structured. You seem to think the SBC has a hierarchical structure like the Catholic Church and Mohler is like a pope. He isn't. While a respected voice, his voice merely expresses his opinion and little more. To go back to my governor analogy, I guess you might say that by being president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary that he is the governor of one of our biggest states but that does not give him any authority outside his state (the SBTS). When he expresses his opinion that is all he is doing. It is not like some sort of papal bull.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            And he was a key player in the Southern Baptist Convention Conservative resurgence, but none of this makes him the spokesperson for the SBC. That is just not how it is structured. You seem to think the SBC has a hierarchical structure like the Catholic Church and Mohler is like a pope. He isn't. ...
            So, though it's probably wasted on Tassman, let's go through what the SBC structure IS! (depending, of course, on what the meaning of the word "is" is)

            There is an "annual meeting", which happens.. .um.. annually.

            Prior to the meeting, all SBC churches are allowed to elect "messengers" (the media calls them delegates) based on the size of the church and other factors, but purposely skewed to allow smaller churches fair representation.

            The reason that we are called "messengers" is because the SBC is structured pretty much from "grassroots -> up" - it would be a messenger who would propose a resolution, and the rest of the 'messengers' at the annual meeting vote accordingly.

            So, there is often a lag when an issue arises, or when the 'messengers' believe that 'leadership' is out of step. By the time the issue arises, and the next annual meeting rolls around, and the messengers get an opportunity to vote... Resolutions have often been used to reign in leadership or to signal what direction we want the Convention to go.

            In my early days with the Convention, there used to be 15,000 to 18,000 messengers in attendance. Last year there were 5,000.

            Part of the reason for that is that when the SBC 'conservative resurgence' occurred, thousands of more liberal churches joined to form 'a convention within a convention', and began holding their own meetings.

            So when some "extremely important biggie" in the SBC speaks, it is recognized that it is his opinion, as he is not authorized to speak for the SBC as a whole - we, the people, speak for the convention at our annual meetings as "messengers".
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Yeah, and Mohler got that position, in part, because he was a mega-fund raiser for that particular Seminary.

              As I said before, I always thought he was a good guy, for the most part, but he seems to be working really hard to distance himself from the SBC in general, and the conservative leaders who are under fire specifically.
              Yep. I know him also (or at least used to about 10 years ago). He has changed a lot since then. Way more political.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Yeah, I know all that, actually attended there a few semesters, but there you are doing it again --- building this up like this is some major issue because he's president of ONE of our seminaries. Like the history of that seminary makes a big difference.

                You are entertaining, I'll give you that.
                Google-fu! He reminds me of Shunyadragon. When he doesn't know something, he just googles till he finds some bit that agrees with him, then quotes it as if it were gospel. Even when it comes from Wikipedia or someone's personal blog.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  And he was a key player in the Southern Baptist Convention Conservative resurgence, but none of this makes him the spokesperson for the SBC. That is just not how it is structured. You seem to think the SBC has a hierarchical structure like the Catholic Church and Mohler is like a pope. He isn't. While a respected voice, his voice merely expresses his opinion and little more. To go back to my governor analogy, I guess you might say that by being president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary that he is the governor of one of our biggest states but that does not give him any authority outside his state (the SBTS). When he expresses his opinion that is all he is doing. It is not like some sort of papal bull.
                  I’m well aware that the SBC does not have a hierarchical structure (in keeping with most non Catholic/Eastern Orthodox Churches), which is why I’ve quoted several Evangelical spokesmen as representative of the development of the current position of the religious right on abortion. I’m arguing that it was originated primarily as a movement by Paul Weyrich and Jerry Falwell, who between them opportunistically turned ‘abortions’ into the political issue it has become today.

                  This is a recent development, one not known during most of the history of the Evangelicalism. E.g. in 1968 a symposium sponsored by the Christian Medical Society and Christianity Today refused to characterize abortion as sinful, citing “individual health, family welfare, and social responsibility” as justifications for ending a pregnancy.

                  Similarly, In 1971, delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention in St. Louis, Missouri, passed a resolution encouraging “Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother. This was reaffirmed in 1974, one year after Roe, and again in 1976 and commended by W. A. Criswell, the Southern Baptist Convention’s previous president and influential pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas...as previously linked.



                  .
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Yep. I know him also (or at least used to about 10 years ago). He has changed a lot since then. Way more political.
                    I saw his speech on Southern Seminary (on video) last week at the annual meeting - you would NEVER GUESS he was at odds with the SBC - so, yeah, very political. He was boasting how God's hand of blessing was on us - after that bombdrop of God's judgment is upon us.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      I’m well aware that the SBC does not have a hierarchical structure
                      Only since you got skeweled on it here. You're doing that thing where you're pretending you didn't have it all screwed up, but actually knew what you were talking about.

                      (in keeping with most non Catholic/Eastern Orthodox Churches),
                      Denominations, not Churches - you apparently haven't grasped that, yet. The Southern Baptist Convention is a denomination, consisting of a bunch of autonomous churches.

                      which is why I’ve quoted several...
                      Let's see... the OPINION of one bureau chief of one office of the Baptist Press who you elevated to a position FAR above his station.....
                      ...the opinion of ONE president of ONE of our seminaries, who you elevated to a position FAR above his station...


                      Why don't you stick to something you actually know something about?
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Google-fu! He reminds me of Shunyadragon. When he doesn't know something, he just googles till he finds some bit that agrees with him, then quotes it as if it were gospel. Even when it comes from Wikipedia or someone's personal blog.
                        And when he gets something really wrong, he just claims "oh, I am well aware of that...." He would have a wee bit of credibility if he were ever able to admit he made a mistake, and went from there.

                        It IS interesting how high esteem he has for somebody like Mohler who stands against homosexuality as sin!



                        Here, he is talking about taking Southern Seminary back to its roots - inerrancy of scripture, to its confessional integrity, back to the "old vision" of the convention 25 years ago... making it recognize Truth that is central and non-negotiable... arguing FOR a godly order in the church and the home...

                        Tass, let's see what your buddies at GLADD say about Mohler....

                        -- Says of transgender people: “The reality of human sinfulness explains why there are those who are deeply troubled and confused about something as fundamental as their gender and self-identity. The brokenness of the world also explains why there are entire ideologies, theories and systems of thought constructed by sinners in order to justify their sin.”

                        -- Believes: “The New Testament reveals that a homosexual sexual orientation, whatever its shape or causation, falls out of line with the Creator’s purpose for humanity. All sinners who are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ know the need for the redemption of our bodies—including our sexual selves. But those with a homosexual sexual orientation face another dimension to this reality: they also need a fundamental reordering of their sexual attraction. About this, the Bible is clear.”

                        -- Signed onto and promoted The Nashville Statement, a document that insists “it is sinful to approve of homosexual immorality or transgenderism and that such approval constitutes an essential departure from Christian faithfulness and witness."

                        -- Predicts: “Finding a biological causation for homosexuality may also lead to the discovery of a ‘cure’ for the same phenomenon.”

                        -- Says: “If a biological basis is found (for being gay), and if a prenatal test is then developed, and if a successful treatment to reverse the sexual orientation to heterosexual is ever developed, we would support its use as we should unapologetically support the use of any appropriate means to avoid sexual temptation and the inevitable effects of sin.”

                        -- Says telling gays that Jesus is the way "out of the homosexual lifestyle" is simply "Christian truth"; claims that an inaugural committee's decision to back away from a pastor who preaches that view constitutes "moral McCarthyism"

                        -- Said the repeal of the discriminatory Don’t Ask, Don’t tell would “present a clear and present threat to the religious liberty of those who wear the American uniform."

                        -- Claimed: “The earthquake in Haiti, like every other earthly disaster, reminds us that creation groans under the weight of sin and the judgment of God”

                        -- Teaches that "any sexual expression outside of that heterosexual marriage relationship is illicit, immoral, and outlawed by God’s explicit command and law"

                        -- More teachings: "Homosexuality is linked directly to idolatry, for it is on the basis of their idolatry that God gave them up to their own lusts. Their hearts were committed to impurity, and they were degrading their own bodies by their illicit lusts. Their idolatry — exchanging the truth of God for a lie, and worshipping the creature rather than the Creator — led God to give them over to their degrading passions. From here, those given over to their degraded passions exchanged the natural use of sexual inter- course for that which God declared to be unnatural [literally, against nature].

                        -- Compares gays to people suffering from cancer: "Liberal churches have redefined compassion to mean that the church changes its message to meet modern demands. They argue that to tell a homosexual he is a sinner is uncompassionate [sic] and intolerant. This is like arguing that a physician is intolerant because he tells a patient she has cancer."



                        So your new HERO OF THE FAITH says Homosexuality is SIN!

                        Do you STILL want to use him as your source?
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          ‘Richard Albert Mohler Jr. is an American historical theologian and the ninth president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. He has been described as "one of America's most influential evangelicals". Wiki.
                          And he calls homosexuality sin.

                          Next?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Only since you got skeweled on it here. You're doing that thing where you're pretending you didn't have it all screwed up, but actually knew what you were talking about.

                            Denominations, not Churches - you apparently haven't grasped that, yet. The Southern Baptist Convention is a denomination, consisting of a bunch of autonomous churches.


                            Let's see... the OPINION of one bureau chief of one office of the Baptist Press who you elevated to a position FAR above his station.....
                            ...the opinion of ONE president of ONE of our seminaries, who you elevated to a position FAR above his station...
                            I’ve quoted several Evangelical spokesmen, not just Mohler, as examples of the evolution of the religious right on abortion. I’m arguing that it originated primarily as a movement by Paul Weyrich and Jerry Falwell, who between them opportunistically turned ‘abortions’ into the political issue it has become today. 'Abortion' for the SBC began primarily as a political movement is the point.

                            Why don't you stick to something you actually know something about?
                            Why don't you stick to the subject instead of gas-lighting. Oh wait, you're a Trump supporter aren't you, this is part of the territory.

                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            And he calls homosexuality sin.
                            ...so you would be OK with aborting homosexual fetus's, is this the point you're making?
                            Last edited by Tassman; 06-19-2018, 08:40 PM.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              I’ve quoted several Evangelical spokesmen...
                              No, you incorrectly promoted persons to "spokesmen". You're goofy.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                ...so you would be OK with aborting homosexual fetus's, is this the point you're making?
                                A) The plural of fetus is FETUSES, not fetus's. Fetus's indicates possession, not plural.
                                2) It's absolutely idiotic to assume from anything that I said that I would be OK aborting a homosexual fetus if there were such a thing.

                                Tassy - you seem particularly off the rails tonight -- you OK?
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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