Ireland legalizes the killing of the unborn

[Starlight]

The overwhelming majority of abortions are not medically necessary.

Agreed. But in this referendum in Ireland, the fact that stringent anti-abortion regulations had demonstrably taken the life of a mother, was indeed on people's minds. So your "I despise the lie that murdering the unborn is done for women's health" spiel was not helpful, because sometimes, yes, an abortion is actually done to save the life of the mother.

[Cow Poke]

I think we can all agree that when they are born, to which Star was referring, they are "babies".

Ah, so you think they magically turn into Babies as they pass through the birth canal! You're even dumber than I thought!

[Cow Poke]

Yup, but I do find it amusing that CP thinks that if he twists my words slightly that that is somehow a victory for him or that it makes us think his general position on the issue is any less bonkers.

No twisting of words - you flat out said it. And, no, I don't consider it a "victory" - I consider it proof of how screwed up your thinking is.

[firstfloor]

The victims are completely innocent, and they get dead at the hands of others. Call it what you will.

The primitive stages of the fetus are neither victims nor innocent. Consider that there has been debate recently about whether chimpanzees should be considered persons. It is easy to see the difference between an intelligent animal and a fetus: given the choice, to whom do you award personhood? It is easy to see that a zygote is not even in the contest; it would hardly try to grab a banana if offered. It just does not qualify. And if it is not a person, it cannot be an innocent person or a victim either.

But, by innocent you probably mean something like pure or untarnished, or worse; a thing to be pitied. You might well say the same thing about anything isolated from contamination. If value is attached to the fetus it is in its genetics. It is a genetic substance like a seed and if there is value in human seeds it is in the genetic code and not the personhood for that aspect does not emerge until much later.

[Mountain Man]

Agreed. But in this referendum in Ireland, the fact that stringent anti-abortion regulations had demonstrably taken the life of a mother, was indeed on people's minds. So your "I despise the lie that murdering the unborn is done for women's health" spiel was not helpful, because sometimes, yes, an abortion is actually done to save the life of the mother.

You're not fooling anybody. This is not what the left is referring to when they attempt to turn murder into a women's health issue. How many pro-abortionists want to see it outlawed except as an extreme, and extremely rare, last-resort procedure to save a mother's life?

I can tell you how many: none.

[Cow Poke]

The primitive stages of the fetus are neither victims nor innocent.

The unborn baby has done nothing wrong, hence innocent. A victim, having no choice in the matter whatsoever.

Consider that there has been debate recently about whether chimpanzees should be considered persons.

Actually, I'll leave that monkey business to you.

[Cow Poke]

You're not fooling anybody. This is not what the left is referring to when they attempt to turn child murder into a women's health issue. How many pro-abortionists want to see it outlawed except as an extreme, and extremely rare, last-resort procedure to save a mother's life?

I can tell you how many: none.

When was the last time you heard somebody declare that abortion needs to be "safe, legal and rare", much less actually mean it?

[Charles]

You're not fooling anybody. This is not what the left is referring to when they attempt to turn murder into a women's health issue. How many pro-abortionists want to see it outlawed except as an extreme, and extremely rare, last-resort procedure to save a mother's life?

I can tell you how many: none.

What is your opinion regarding those extreme and extremely rare cases in which it could be a last resort procedure to save a mother's life? Are you against abortion in those cases?

[firstfloor]

The unborn baby has done nothing wrong, hence innocent. A victim, having no choice in the matter whatsoever.

Choice is not a factor for a fetus. Your problem really is that you are personifying something that is a substance and not a person. The language is emotive but very dishonest. It fails because people can see through the deception. The Irish vote is a consequence of that dishonesty and that failure.

It is unfortunate that men cannot put themselves in the women’s place. The calculus then would surely be very different.

If you want to do something useful, please concentrate on the sex education and contraception side of things which will help to reduce the demand for abortions. Free condoms in Church?

Actually, I'll leave that monkey business to you.

That was the best bit!

[Cow Poke]

Choice is not a factor for a fetus.

Because he/she is never allowed to grow up and make them.

[firstfloor]

Because he/she is never allowed to grow up and make them.

In Cricket, they say WIDE!

[Cow Poke]

In Cricket, they say WIDE!

Bully for them! (or, Dilly Dilly?)

[Catholicity]

Amendment 8 was worded imprecisely, and eventually led to the conflicting rights of mother and unborn child many had feared. However, it appears that High Court rulings gave some clarification. I can't quite grasp why the Savita Halappanavar case had to end in tragedy.

Article.

In the case of Savita Halappanavar the miscarriage was inevitable and so many things went wrong. Unfortunately the way the law was interpreted? they couldn't do anything until the heartbeat was no longer present. The problem with that very misconstrued interpretation is that the miscarriage was in progress so not doing a standar d&c with antibiotics was a very bad choice. And it looks a little backward. BUT in 2013 they passed a law that would have made sure that what happened to her never happened to anyone else. So this whole make abortion legal was not necessary. The law for medical circumstances was already there.

[Cow Poke]

In the case of Savita Halappanavar the miscarriage was inevitable and so many things went wrong. Unfortunately the way the law was interpreted? they couldn't do anything until the heartbeat was no longer present. The problem with that very misconstrued interpretation is that the miscarriage was in progress so not doing a standar d&c with antibiotics was a very bad choice. And it looks a little backward. BUT in 2013 they passed a law that would have made sure that what happened to her never happened to anyone else. So this whole make abortion legal was not necessary. The law for medical circumstances was already there.

So, when FF says...

The Irish vote is a consequence of that dishonesty and that failure

There was, apparently, plenty of that to go around.

[One Bad Pig]

What is your opinion regarding those extreme and extremely rare cases in which it could be a last resort procedure to save a mother's life? Are you against abortion in those cases?

I am not. At that point, if the mother dies, so does the fetus, and intervention is necessary so that at least one life is saved. However, if the fetus is past the point of viability outside the womb (about 24 weeks these days, IIRC), then the living fetus should be safely extracted, not aborted.