Ireland legalizes the killing of the unborn

[Mountain Man]

You are conflating "life" with "individual lives". bacteria are "life". sperm cells are "life". Neither are an individual human life as typically defined as an individual self-directing member of our species.

Roy is equivocating. They are living cells, but they do not meet the scientific definition of life/life-form/organism because they are not self-sustaining.

[Mountain Man]

Your inability to understand isn't my problem. Enjoy your bliss.

So this is real? You're not just feigning ignorance?

Alrighty then.

[Mountain Man]

That was bad logic, even for you.

I disagree. That's exactly the sort of bad logic I've come to expect from Roy.

[stfoskey15]

While I have the deepest sympathies for the mother in circumstances like this and can understand her desire to want to rid herself of any reminder of the ordeal she was forced to endure, the baby is innocent of any wrongdoing and shouldn't be made to pay the price -- especially with his or her life.

I don't think it has the same moral value as an already born baby, tho.

In cases where a woman is pregnant as a result of rape and it's going to cause economic hardship, I'd like to think there are many compassionate Christians in the US who are more than willing to step in and help. (I also personally believe once the rapist gets out of jail, he should get all his wages garnished for child support until the child is 18, by the maximum amount allowed under law.)

We have a man in town who told me about 5 years ago if that situation ever comes up, he wants to help. His mother was raped, and he is the product of that. He is an incredibly generous man.

That's nice. I don't really know how widespread abortion as a result of rape is or how effective that would be, but ok.

One thing I was reading was that 73% of women who chose to get abortions do so at least partially for financial reasons. That would be something to look into if one seeks to reduce the rate of abortions.

[stfoskey15]

Roy is equivocating. They are living cells, but they do not meet the scientific definition of life/life-form/organism because they are not self-sustaining.

How is a fetus self-sustaining? Isn't it completely dependent on the mother?

[Mountain Man]

How is a fetus self-sustaining? Isn't it completely dependent on the mother?

Only in the sense that you or I are completely dependent on our environment to survive.

I mean "self-sustaining" in the sense that the organism can metabolize nutrients and use them for development and survival. Things like skin cells and spermatozoa do no have this ability and therefore do not meet the scientific definition of "life".

[Starlight]

No, because every single human being alive today has went through the very same stages of life as those "clumps of cells" that you want to abort.

I also went through the stages of having skin cells and fingernails too, but those are getting a lot of hating-on in this thread.

We all started out our lives as a single cell organism.

And before that 'I' was a sperm and and egg. But you guys are hating on sperm as well.

At every stage of your life, from conception till now, it was always YOU, Starlight.

No, it certainly wasn't. What makes me ME is not the atoms that happen to currently comprise my body (they change out regularly), or the DNA I happen to have (it changes a bit over one's life, and though it contributes a lot it's not definitive), it's the person I have become through the sum total of my life experiences and choices therein, it's all my hopes and dreams, all my thoughts and fears, all my ideas and tendencies and humor and personality and memories and quirks and beliefs and hobbies and habits. That is what makes me ME, and that certainly didn't exist at all in any way at the moment of conception, and had barely begun to exist by the time I was 5 years old.

I believe you were always a person and always had a soul, even if you don't.

And that's the important bit: Your idea of the 'soul' which you believe in and which you think God adds at the moment of conception.

[firstfloor]

Only in the sense that you or I are completely dependent on our environment to survive.

I mean "self-sustaining" in the sense that the organism can metabolize nutrients and use them for development and survival. Things like skin cells and spermatozoa do no have this ability and therefore do not meet the scientific definition of "life".

https://www.quora.com/Can-a-fetus-be...iteria-for-one

I have given this some thought and I think that the charge of murder against someone who destroys a parasite is very offensive to those who survive real murder victims.

[Mountain Man]

Obvious troll is obvious.

[Starlight]

Source: Developmental Biology, 9th Edition

Throughout the animal kingdom, an incredible variety of embryonic types exist, but most patterns of embryogenesis are variations on six fundamental processes: fertilization, cleavage, gastrulation, organogenesis, metamorphosis, and gametogenesis.

1. Fertilization involves the fusion of the mature sex cells, the sperm and egg, which are collectively called the gametes. The fusion of the gamete cells stimulates the egg to begin development and initiates a new individual. The subsequent fusion of the gamete nuclei (both of which have only half the normal number of chromosomes characteristic for the species) gives the embryo its genome, the collection of genes that helps instruct the embryo to develop in a manner very similar to that of it parents.

Gilbert S. 2010. Developmental Biology. 9th Ed. Sunderland (MA): Sinauer Associates, Inc. Chapter 1, Developmental Anatomy; p. 6.

© Copyright Original Source

Since I don't think MM even did high school biology since he doesn't seem to understand the most basic definition of 'life' typically used, and Sparko thinks being anti-abortion is all about not killing 'souls' so makes me roll my eyes at him, let's try discussing this with you, CMD, and see if you can put forth decent arguments...

In your post you highlighted the phrase "new individual" in three different quotes, so I assume you see that as an important fact. It is certainly true that an embryo is a developing new individual member of the species in a way that an average cell is not. I note that there are alternative science-based methods for creating new individuals from existing cells, such as creating a clone by implanting DNA into an existing egg, or various processes on a stem cell to create a new individual. However, since you seem to be identifying the idea of a "new individual" as the point of focus and moral concern, I doubt it matters in your morality what the particular origin of that "new individual" member of the species is.

I note that the majority of such "new individuals" die fairly quickly due to developmental failures - they fail to implant properly in the womb, or something goes wrong in their development, etc. In your mind is the death of these developing clump of cells a severe tragedy on par with the death of a 40 year old?

Can you explain why we should consider the point at which the cells become a "new individual" a point of particular moral concern? Why should our morality toward a microscopic clump of cells change just because a few technical changes have occurred in the details of the function of the cells?

[Mountain Man]

Since I don't think MM even did high school biology since he doesn't seem to understand the most basic definition of 'life'...

And yet you're the one who stupidly claimed that skin cells are an organism and then tried to prop up your embarrassing gaffe by citing "Daniel Super, Game Programmer" as an authoritative source on biology.

And then you claim I'm the one who lacks understanding.

[Starlight]

And yet you're the one who stupidly claimed that skin cells are an organism and then tried to prop up your embarrassing gaffe by citing "Daniel Super, Game Programmer" as an authoritative source on biology.

And then you claim I'm the one who lacks understanding.

MM, it's basic biology that cells are alive. It's like first year of high-school stuff. The fact you didn't know that says you're not worth interacting with on the issue. And then you try and attack the random source I linked to that pointed out this basic biology to you, it's just sad. I don't really understand why, as such a stupid and ignorant person, you go on these crusades on issues from anti-abortion to YEC to anti-global warming to try and convince others of your idiocy. Why don't you educate yourself instead? Go to ItunesU or Youtube and watch a 100-level lecture series on these topics, and instead of spouting drivel in these forums, actually learn something.

[Mountain Man]

MM, it's basic biology that cells are alive.

Skin cells are alive, but they do not meet the scientific definition of lifehttps://www.wikiwand.com/en/Life#/Biology

A skin cell is a skin cell. It doesn't grow, it doesn't organize, it doesn't adapt, it doesn't self-sustain, it doesn't metabolize, it doesn't respond to stimuli. Remove a skin cell from the organism, and it dies. Why? Because it's not a life-form!

You claim to have a science degree, so what am I to conclude? That you really know this, and you're just trolling me? That you cheated your way through school and didn't deserve the degree you were given? That you went to a second-rate school that gave you a worthless diploma? I really don't know what your game is here.

[Starlight]

Skin cells are alive, but they do not meet the scientific definition of life

They do meet the scientific definition. They are alive, they are life.

It doesn't grow, it doesn't organize, it doesn't adapt, it doesn't self-sustain, it doesn't metabolize, it doesn't respond to stimuli.

Cells do all those things. That is why they are regarded as life. Cells are the gold standard of the scientific definition of life.

Remove a skin cell from the organism, and it dies.

Stick you in outer space and you'd die. When you take any life out of the environment that it needs, it dies.

I really don't know what your game is here.

At this point my game is laughing at you.

What I don't get is why you, a maximally ignorant idiot, spam this forum with your ignorance on so many different topics.

[Mountain Man]

They do meet the scientific definition. They are alive, they are life.

Cells do all those things. That is why they are regarded as life. Cells are the gold standard of the scientific definition of life.

Stick you in outer space and you'd die. When you take any life out of the environment that it needs, it dies.

At this point my game is laughing at you.

What I don't get is why you, a maximally ignorant idiot, spam this forum with your ignorance on so many different topics.

You can not convince me that you are genuinely this ignorant. Skin cells are not life-forms, and I'm certain you know it.