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Thread: Toulouse Council of 1229

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Toulouse Council of 1229

    A friend of mine posted this item that has been floating around Facebook:

    33622884_1747437048678120_1565481155229122560_n.jpg

    Anybody have any information on whether this is true, or the background information?
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    It pertained to reading vernacular translations of the Bible, not the Bible per se.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    It pertained to reading vernacular translations of the Bible, not the Bible per se.
    Wouldn't this still be an effective ban on reading the Bible for those who did not speak Latin?
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Wouldn't this still be an effective ban on reading the Bible for those who did not speak Latin?
    Mostly for those who didn't read Latin.

    But then back then most of those in Europe who were literate tended to have at least a working understanding of Latin. In fact, in a book on the Middle Ages I just finished reading the author, Morris Bishop, said that not only could most literate people read Latin, their mastery of it far exceeded ours.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    This is not about Tollhouse Cookies?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    This is not about Tollhouse Cookies?
    When I glanced at the title I first thought this was something about Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Mostly for those who didn't read Latin.

    But then back then most of those in Europe who were literate tended to have at least a working understanding of Latin. In fact, in a book on the Middle Ages I just finished reading the author, Morris Bishop, said that not only could most literate people read Latin, their mastery of it far exceeded ours.
    More or less. This was more a case of bias against the vernacular (and the fact that the Pope had not authorized any translation into the vernacular) than against the laity reading the scriptures per se.

    Keeping everything in Latin was a pretty effective barrier against the laity in general, however.

    In England (granted a few centuries difference), the vernacular translation chained in churches was so popular that people were reading it aloud during services.
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    One Catholic apologetics board I came across suggested an analogy of modern day Protestant ministers who would tell their flock not to read the Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    More or less. This was more a case of bias against the vernacular (and the fact that the Pope had not authorized any translation into the vernacular) than against the laity reading the scriptures per se.
    Exactly, literacy was not exactly high back then. And unauthorized translations were viewed with suspicion -- partly because groups like Waldensians, Paterines, and Cathars/Albigensians (all active around this time) were very vocal advocates for vernacular translations. This wariness if not outright distrust can still be seen in comments from various popes of the 19th century like Pius VII, Leo XII and Gregory XVI.

    For instance, from Pius VII's 1829 papal encyclical "Traditi Humilitati":

    5. We must also be wary of those who publish the Bible with new interpretations contrary to the Church’s laws. They skillfully distort the meaning by their own interpretation. They print the Bibles in the vernacular and, absorbing an incredible expense, offer them free even to the uneducated. Furthermore, the Bibles are rarely without perverse little inserts to insure that the reader imbibes their lethal poison instead of the saving water of salvation. Long ago the Apostolic See warned about this serious hazard to the faith and drew up a list of the authors of these pernicious notions. The rules of this Index were published by the Council of Trent;[8] the ordinance required that translations of the Bible into the vernacular not be permitted without the approval of the Apostolic See and further required that they be published with commentaries from the Fathers. The sacred Synod of Trent had decreed[9] in order to restrain impudent characters, that no one, relying on his own prudence in matters of faith and of conduct which concerns Christian doctrine, might twist the sacred Scriptures to his own opinion, or to an opinion contrary to that of the Church or the popes. Though such machinations against the Catholic faith had been assailed long ago by these canonical proscriptions, Our recent predecessors made a special effort to check these spreading evils.[10] With these arms may you too strive to fight the battles of the Lord which endanger the sacred teachings, lest this deadly virus spread in your flock.






    Still, as I noted, anyone who was literate at the time almost certainly knew Latin if not for reading Roman works but also as a lingua franca of at least the the majority of Europe.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    1. The 1582 Reims NT was banned in Elizabethan England

    2. It is quite normal to find editions of Orthodox or Catholic Bibles printed by Protestant publishers, that leave out the OT books that Protestantism (but not those other two Christianities) regards as non-canonical.

    Yet nobody would claim that Protestant publishers are trying to “ban the Bible”, or that the Protestant critics of the NWT “oppose the Bible”, or that the Elizabethan govt. “was against the Bible”.

    In all these cases, the relevant authorities were not “opposing/suppressing the Bible” - they were against the circulation of (what they judged to be) false or falsified versions of it. And considering how widespread the misuse of it is today, ISTM that such caution is more than justified. It would not be difficult to argue that excessive familiarity with it has bred contempt for it, and that its use ought to be restricted to those who can be trusted not to abuse it. Every heresy quotes it - as St Vincent of Lerins noted, 1500 years ago - and the result of this is to undermine its authority.

    What the critics of the Catholic policy towards its availability seem never to have considered, is that the ready availability of it has led to these evils.

    IMO, the action of the Council of Toulouse was fully justified, and needs absolutely no apology, given the seriousness of the danger from Catharism in the South of France.

    As for reading the Bible in Latin, that is not at all difficult. The Latin of the Vulgate is much simpler than that of Cicero, and is no more challenging than French or Spanish. Ignorance of Latin is a great impoverishment
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 05-28-2018 at 11:21 PM.

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