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The Atheist Theist Tension

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  • The Atheist Theist Tension

    I am in a discussion in another thread in which my observation that I try not to use American currency because it says "In God we Trust" on it has become something of an issue. Apparently, that view is seen with some degree of hostility. That discussion has prompted a question on my part.

    Does anyone here think that a mistaken belief is a good thing? If someone thinks "X is true," would they see value in the belief "X is untrue?" Likewise, if someone believes "X is untrue," would they see value in the belief "X is true?"

    I ask because I find that atheists are often cast as "unbelievers," but the truth is that we are all believers in something. We just don't all agree on what is true. So the theist is an unbeliever in atheism, and the atheist is an unbeliever in theism. The theist is a believer in theism, and the atheist is a believer in atheism.

    We all have our beliefs about what is "real." None of us wants to be told what we have to believe, and none of us wants to have to be forced to profess a belief we do not share.

    This is why I believe government should be mum about gods. It should not profess that gods exist, and it should not profess that they do not exist. It should not force a particular religion, and it should not discriminate against those who have no religion. Religion belongs in churches. The government should take no position on religion in any respects. The founders were so clear on this, that although they included references to god in the DOE (which has no legal weight), they omitted any such references in the Constitution, which is THE legal source for our country. The one place where religion is mentioned is A1 - where the government is barred from taking a religious position.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-29-2018, 03:39 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    This is why I believe government should be mum about gods. It should not profess that gods exist, and it should not profess that they do not exist. It should not force a particular religion, and it should not discriminate against those who have no religion. Religion belongs in churches. The government should take no position on religion in any respects. The founders were so clear on this, that although they included references to god in the DOE (which has no legal weight), they omitted any such references in the Constitution, which is THE legal source for our country. The one place where religion is mentioned is A1 - where the government is barred from taking a religious position.

    Thoughts?
    Keep your faith in the privacy of your own home, keep quiet about in public. Baloney no matter how thin you slice it.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      Keep your faith in the privacy of your own home, keep quiet about in public. Baloney no matter how thin you slice it.
      I do not think you will find that in anything I wrote....

      ETA: actually - I now realize that "religions belong in churches" could be read that way. I was actually trying to say "religion does not belong in government" and I over-spoke. In fact, each person should have the right to practice their religion but does not have the right to impose that religion on our government or other people. That means atheists cannot impose atheism on theists, and theists cannot impose theism on atheists.
      Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-29-2018, 04:06 PM.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #4
        I haven't read the other thread so forgive me for asking this.

        What currency DO you use?


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #5
          One of the bigger outstanding issues of the Government - religion interactions seems to me to be that churches have tax exemptions. It seems likely that in my country that will be removed in the next decade or so, but I can't see it happening in the US anytime soon.

          I do find it amusing that "in God we trust" is written on US currency. The US has such ugly old currency too. It really needs a design and color update to be more pretty and modern and plastic like the Euro / Canadian dollar / Australian dollar / New Zealand dollar etc. Here's my country's banknotes for example:
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            I haven't read the other thread so forgive me for asking this.

            What currency DO you use?
            I use electronic exchanges whenever/wherever possible. I usually carry no cash.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              I use electronic exchanges whenever/wherever possible. I usually carry no cash.
              Aren't you sort of being nitpicky? Currency is just paper with words printed on it. Or metal. It doesn't mean anything. Aren't there bigger hills to die on?

              Do you celebrate Christmas and Easter? Do you get time off work on Christmas Day? Get Easter Monday off? Or do you volunteer to work those "holy-days" so Christians can have the day off?

              I just think you're being silly.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #8
                I've never heard of anybody being that nitpicky about money. Andrew Jackson is hated by many Americans because of his role in the Trail of Tears, but I've never heard of anybody refusing to spend a $20 bill.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I am in a discussion in another thread in which my observation that I try not to use American currency because it says "In God we Trust" on it has become something of an issue. Apparently, that view is seen with some degree of hostility. That discussion has prompted a question on my part.

                  Does anyone here think that a mistaken belief is a good thing? If someone thinks "X is true," would they see value in the belief "X is untrue?" Likewise, if someone believes "X is untrue," would they see value in the belief "X is true?"

                  I ask because I find that atheists are often cast as "unbelievers," but the truth is that we are all believers in something. We just don't all agree on what is true. So the theist is an unbeliever in atheism, and the atheist is an unbeliever in theism. The theist is a believer in theism, and the atheist is a believer in atheism.

                  We all have our beliefs about what is "real." None of us wants to be told what we have to believe, and none of us wants to have to be forced to profess a belief we do not share.

                  This is why I believe government should be mum about gods. It should not profess that gods exist, and it should not profess that they do not exist. It should not force a particular religion, and it should not discriminate against those who have no religion. Religion belongs in churches. The government should take no position on religion in any respects. The founders were so clear on this, that although they included references to god in the DOE (which has no legal weight), they omitted any such references in the Constitution, which is THE legal source for our country. The one place where religion is mentioned is A1 - where the government is barred from taking a religious position.

                  Thoughts?
                  I am a Theist, and I am personally in agreement with the problem with " In God we Trust" on USA currency. I find this a foot in the door endangering the separation of church and state. Our disagreements beyond the obvious I am a Theist and you are not involve science.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    For the record - I don't like the idea of "In God we trust" being on currency either because I don't think it's true on a national level. It's not a subject I have super strong feelings about though.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                      Aren't you sort of being nitpicky? Currency is just paper with words printed on it. Or metal. It doesn't mean anything. Aren't there bigger hills to die on?

                      Do you celebrate Christmas and Easter? Do you get time off work on Christmas Day? Get Easter Monday off? Or do you volunteer to work those "holy-days" so Christians can have the day off?

                      I just think you're being silly.
                      I actually do not "die" on this hill. I'm not filing law suits. I'm not picketing. I'm simply not using the currency.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        Aren't you sort of being nitpicky? Currency is just paper with words printed on it. Or metal. It doesn't mean anything. Aren't there bigger hills to die on?

                        Do you celebrate Christmas and Easter? Do you get time off work on Christmas Day? Get Easter Monday off? Or do you volunteer to work those "holy-days" so Christians can have the day off?

                        I just think you're being silly.
                        I actually do not "die" on this hill. I'm not filing law suits. I'm not picketing. I'm simply not using the currency unless I absolutely have to.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          I've never heard of anybody being that nitpicky about money. Andrew Jackson is hated by many Americans because of his role in the Trail of Tears, but I've never heard of anybody refusing to spend a $20 bill.
                          Actually...they exist (not me). And I think Andrew is about to be ditched for that very reason...
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            For the record - I don't like the idea of "In God we trust" being on currency either because I don't think it's true on a national level. It's not a subject I have super strong feelings about though.
                            I would not describe my feelings as "strong." If they were, I would never use the currency under any circumstances. I think it is one of many examples of places where "religion" has crept into our government despite the will of the founders. I resist it in my small way...and live with it otherwise. Until atheists truly dominate the landscape, it is not going to change. When we do, the phrase will disappear and silence will take it's place - so that theists can worship as they wish, and atheists are not required to.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              Andrew Jackson is hated by many Americans because of his role in the Trail of Tears, but I've never heard of anybody refusing to spend a $20 bill.
                              Andrew Jackson obviously needs to be replaced with Hillary Clinton, stat!

                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment

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