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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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The Atheist Theist Tension

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Andrew Jackson obviously needs to be replaced with Hillary Clinton, stat!

    00000000000000ars4a.gif

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #17
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      I actually do not "die" on this hill. I'm not filing law suits. I'm not picketing. I'm simply not using the currency.
      You didn't answer my other questions.


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I would not describe my feelings as "strong." If they were, I would never use the currency under any circumstances. I think it is one of many examples of places where "religion" has crept into our government despite the will of the founders. I resist it in my small way...and live with it otherwise. Until atheists truly dominate the landscape, it is not going to change. When we do, the phrase will disappear and silence will take it's place - so that theists can worship as they wish, and atheists are not required to.
        You have a chip on your shoulder.
        A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
        George Bernard Shaw

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        • #19
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          I am in a discussion in another thread in which my observation that I try not to use American currency because it says "In God we Trust" on it has become something of an issue. Apparently, that view is seen with some degree of hostility. That discussion has prompted a question on my part.

          Does anyone here think that a mistaken belief is a good thing? If someone thinks "X is true," would they see value in the belief "X is untrue?" Likewise, if someone believes "X is untrue," would they see value in the belief "X is true?"

          I ask because I find that atheists are often cast as "unbelievers," but the truth is that we are all believers in something. We just don't all agree on what is true. So the theist is an unbeliever in atheism, and the atheist is an unbeliever in theism. The theist is a believer in theism, and the atheist is a believer in atheism.

          We all have our beliefs about what is "real." None of us wants to be told what we have to believe, and none of us wants to have to be forced to profess a belief we do not share.

          This is why I believe government should be mum about gods. It should not profess that gods exist, and it should not profess that they do not exist. It should not force a particular religion, and it should not discriminate against those who have no religion. Religion belongs in churches. The government should take no position on religion in any respects. The founders were so clear on this, that although they included references to god in the DOE (which has no legal weight), they omitted any such references in the Constitution, which is THE legal source for our country. The one place where religion is mentioned is A1 - where the government is barred from taking a religious position.

          Thoughts?
          I am totally in favour of being “told what to believe”, if the authority is one that I recognise as having the right, or the duty, to do so. I don’t see how it is possible to teach or to govern, if one does not have authority to do this. Every learner driver, everyone being trained to do a job, can learn to act rightly as a driver or worker only if they have the humility to accept instruction, advice and correction from those who are qualified by experience and knowledge and practice and insight to “tell them what to believe”.

          Sturdy independence and self-sufficiency are all very well, but if people want to leave together in harmony, these things cannot be unlimited.

          The Church has a duty to teach those who will listen, whether she wishes to do so or not. It is her business to “teach with authority”, and to “tell people what to believe”. This is because she believes herself to have received a Divine Revelation, meant for the entire human race, one which she has received in the confidence that it is true, and is worthy of acceptance, and in need of being known. The Church is missionary and evangelical of her very nature - it is no good expecting her not to be missionary, or not to evangelise, because she is driven to do so by an inner and over-ruling compulsion. One might as well expect flame not to burn, or water not to be wet.

          As for government: I disagree, though I can see reasons in favour of that position. The state ought to profess that religion which is deemed to be true - something Islam has understood. I’m not from the US, and Catholic Christianity is, and must be, more important to me than my country. So I reject the view, which seems fairly common, that one’s country must take precedence over one’s loyalty to God. The Church is more important than the State, because the Church has a more excellent end than the State. For the Church exists to foster life with Christ, in this world and the next; whereas the State exists to promote the good of its subjects alone, in this world alone. The Church will therefore last forever, but no State will do so. Far from men being insignificant compared with the numberless stars, it is men who will last forever, and the heavens that are insignificant and temporary. So the contrary idea, that turns upon several science videos, is back-to-front. A single human being is worth more than all multiverses.

          The rights of the human person are not absolute, for man is always and in all things subject to his Creator. Whatever rights man has, therefore, are bounded by, and founded upon, his relation to the God in Whose Image he has been created. God has claims upon man, and the most basic of these is the right to be acknowledged as God. So there can be no true right to worship any other God - at most, there can be an imagined right to do so, founded in positive law but not in the equity that laws ought to embody. Rights are true rights, rights worthy of that name, only if they reflect the known Character and Will of God. If they are contrary to this, they are no true rights at all, but are imaginary rights. Abortion is a grave evil - therefore, there can be no true (because God-given) right to have an abortion. Since this imaginary right has however been conceded, it can be argued that, in order to avoid worse evils, the unjust legislation that allows this unjust practice must be tolerated, until such time as something better can take its place. It can be tolerated, but not approved. And this injustice cannot be opposed by bombing abortion facilities, or murdering medical personnel who perform abortions, or by maligning politicians.
          Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 05-29-2018, 11:33 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            I do not think you will find that in anything I wrote....

            ETA: actually - I now realize that "religions belong in churches" could be read that way. I was actually trying to say "religion does not belong in government" and I over-spoke. In fact, each person should have the right to practice their religion but does not have the right to impose that religion on our government or other people. That means atheists cannot impose atheism on theists, and theists cannot impose theism on atheists.
            That is exactly how I took your remark about "religions belong in churches." The fact is that my faith in Jesus Christ is a major influence in my voting, and I have every right to use whatever I see fit to inform my vote. That can well be seen as an imposition of my faith atheists.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              Aren't you sort of being nitpicky? Currency is just paper with words printed on it. Or metal. It doesn't mean anything. Aren't there bigger hills to die on?
              If these words don't mean anything the obvious thing to do is remove them. They assume a belief not held by a segment of the population.

              Do you celebrate Christmas and Easter? Do you get time off work on Christmas Day? Get Easter Monday off? Or do you volunteer to work those "holy-days" so Christians can have the day off?
              Public holidays reflect cultural traditions, but they can readily be applied to events and people other than religious beliefs. It would be preferable if they did.

              I just think you're being silly.
              It's easy to accuse others of being silly when you're still getting your own way re the currency and public holidays.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Actually...they exist (not me). And I think Andrew is about to be ditched for that very reason...
                I can't help but notice that the people depicted on US currency are all old white men. I get that the founders were all old white men, but still. Currency is one of those places where a bit of symbolic demographic diversity is an easy win. MLK Jr and Harriet Tubman would seem decent choices for some replacements.

                Putting Obama on one is probably too controversial a choice. Although the best-selling coins at the moment seem to be the Donald Trump's North Korean Peace Summit Commemorative Coins which liberals can't buy enough of for the irony value...



                Making Currency Great Again!
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  If these words don't mean anything the obvious thing to do is remove them. They assume a belief not held by a segment of the population.
                  The words on the coins and bills mean nothing, especially within a pagan culture such as NA currently exhibits. I could care less if the words stay or go.



                  Public holidays reflect cultural traditions, but they can readily be applied to events and people other than religious beliefs. It would be preferable if they did.
                  Christmas and Easter were originally Christian holy days. Just because the culture has absconded with and changed the meaning behind the holy days doesn't mean that the truth behind them has changed.

                  My question stands. Does carpe take a day off and celebrates these days? I don't think you can answer for him.



                  It's easy to accuse others of being silly when you're still getting your own way re the currency and public holidays.

                  As I said, I could care less about the words on the money. They are meaningless in the current culture.

                  And I'm certainly not getting my own way in regards to holy days. I couldn't care less if you celebrate them or not. But let me celebrate them for their true meaning, and you don't get to have your way by telling me I can't!
                  Last edited by mossrose; 05-30-2018, 08:51 AM.


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                  • #24
                    Another question, for carpe alone, please.

                    If you saw a bill of any denomination lying on the ground, would you pick it up? Or would you leave it there for someone with fewer scruples than you to take?

                    At what denomination would you deign to stoop down at pick it up?

                    I'd also like you to answer my other questions.
                    Last edited by mossrose; 05-30-2018, 08:51 AM.


                    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      One of the bigger outstanding issues of the Government - religion interactions seems to me to be that churches have tax exemptions. It seems likely that in my country that will be removed in the next decade or so, but I can't see it happening in the US anytime soon.

                      I do find it amusing that "in God we trust" is written on US currency. The US has such ugly old currency too. It really needs a design and color update to be more pretty and modern and plastic like the Euro / Canadian dollar / Australian dollar / New Zealand dollar etc. Here's my country's banknotes for example:
                      I bet you like web sites with every font and color in the world on them too.

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                      • #26
                        I can't think of any reason I'd have a problem with MLK Jr or Harriet Tubman being put on a bill.
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          This is why I believe government should be mum about gods. It should not profess that gods exist, and it should not profess that they do not exist....

                          Thoughts?
                          Except we live in a Country that grounds human rights in God, our founding declaration. You just can not separate religion (especially the Christian religion) from the nature and character of this nation.

                          http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            I've never heard of anybody being that nitpicky about money. Andrew Jackson is hated by many Americans because of his role in the Trail of Tears, but I've never heard of anybody refusing to spend a $20 bill.
                            I find it ironic that a guy who hated the idea of a National Bank is on our national currency.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                              I can't think of any reason I'd have a problem with MLK Jr or Harriet Tubman being put on a bill.



                              Of course the always, *ahem* reliable fact checkers at Snopes have uncategorically declared it false that she was a "Gun-Toting Republican" in spite of the fact that she did indeed carry a pistol


                              which she used, according to her biographer, Kate Clifford Larson, "mostly for protection from slave catchers, but also to encourage weak-hearted runaways from turning back and risking the safety of the rest of the group."

                              And even liberals admit that she was a Republican:

                              From Mother Jones: Harriet Tubman Was a Republican! which mocks the idea that the Obama Administration was somehow unaware that "She carried a gun while helping slaves escape! She was a Republican!" and snarks "Next they’re going to remind us that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican too."

                              From the Huffington Post: Black Republicans: 10 Famous African Americans With Ties To The GOP which notes matter-of-factly, "While major figures like Harriet Tubman and Sojourner Truth were known members of the party"

                              From Frankly Curious: Harriet Tubman and Republican Ignorance which flat out admits "The truth is that Harriet Tubman was a gun loving Republican" and "Of course Tubman was a Republican! The Republican Party was the anti-slavery party."

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Of course the always, *ahem* reliable fact checkers at Snopes have uncategorically declared it false that she was a "Gun-Toting Republican" in spite of the fact that she did indeed carry a pistol
                                Well, Snopes . . .
                                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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