Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Atheist Theist Tension

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I bet you like web sites with every font and color in the world on them too.
    These are even better than Time Cube!
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      You didn't answer my other questions.
      You're right... sorry... next post...
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        Do you celebrate Christmas and Easter?
        My wife and my mother are Christian, and there are family gatherings that have become traditional. So Easter is just a day to gather and have a meal together and play games. We do celebrate Christmas, and my wife puts up a creche. The rest of us just eat, drink, and swap gifts.

        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        Do you get time off work on Christmas Day?
        I am self employed, so I may or may not work a few hours.

        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        Get Easter Monday off?
        No.

        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        Or do you volunteer to work those "holy-days" so Christians can have the day off?
        No.

        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        I just think you're being silly.
        Of courser you do. So I'll ask the same question Sparko refuses to answer: if the currency said "We do not trust in god," would you happily exchange the currency, or would you seek to use electronic means as much as possible?
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #34
          Deleted Duplicate...
          Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-30-2018, 04:27 PM.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
            You have a chip on your shoulder.
            No - not really. This topic is getting far more treatment here than I spend on it daily. Indeed, I seldom think of it.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by carpe
              Of courser you do. So I'll ask the same question Sparko refuses to answer: if the currency said "We do not trust in god," would you happily exchange the currency, or would you seek to use electronic means as much as possible?
              I don't care what the currency says on it. I know the majority of people in your country and mine do not trust in God. They have other gods and money is one of them, of course. As Jesus told the Pharisees and Herodians, "render unto Caesar", etc. Money is nothing to me. And what it says on it means nothing to me.

              I carry some cash with me all the time. However, I already mostly use electronic means. More for convenience than anything else.

              I think you should not celebrate Christmas, regardless of your family's wishes. It is a Christian holy day, and that goes against what you believe. Just like "in God we trust" on the money.

              Now, my other question to you is still awaiting a reply.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                I am totally in favour of being “told what to believe”, if the authority is one that I recognise as having the right, or the duty, to do so. I don’t see how it is possible to teach or to govern, if one does not have authority to do this. Every learner driver, everyone being trained to do a job, can learn to act rightly as a driver or worker only if they have the humility to accept instruction, advice and correction from those who are qualified by experience and knowledge and practice and insight to “tell them what to believe”.
                As a teacher, I have no problem with this. It doesn't really relate to what I was posting about. When one has done the work to learn and understand, I find it inappropriate for the government to impose a belief system or assume what my belief system is.

                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                Sturdy independence and self-sufficiency are all very well, but if people want to leave together in harmony, these things cannot be unlimited.

                The Church has a duty to teach those who will listen, whether she wishes to do so or not. It is her business to “teach with authority”, and to “tell people what to believe”. This is because she believes herself to have received a Divine Revelation, meant for the entire human race, one which she has received in the confidence that it is true, and is worthy of acceptance, and in need of being known. The Church is missionary and evangelical of her very nature - it is no good expecting her not to be missionary, or not to evangelise, because she is driven to do so by an inner and over-ruling compulsion. One might as well expect flame not to burn, or water not to be wet.

                As for government: I disagree, though I can see reasons in favour of that position. The state ought to profess that religion which is deemed to be true - something Islam has understood.
                No - on this we disagree - and I believe our founders would have disagreed as well.

                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                I’m not from the US, and Catholic Christianity is, and must be, more important to me than my country. So I reject the view, which seems fairly common, that one’s country must take precedence over one’s loyalty to God.
                This has nothing to do with my post. My post has to do with government assuming a particular system of beliefs - either a specific religion, or a specific position on god (e.g., existence, non-existence).

                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                The Church is more important than the State, because the Church has a more excellent end than the State.
                To the theist. The atheist would look at this statement and say, "no." And for the state to be silent on religion does not affect the theist's ability to see their religion as "supreme."

                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                For the Church exists to foster life with Christ, in this world and the next; whereas the State exists to promote the good of its subjects alone, in this world alone. The Church will therefore last forever, but no State will do so. Far from men being insignificant compared with the numberless stars, it is men who will last forever, and the heavens that are insignificant and temporary. So the contrary idea, that turns upon several science videos, is back-to-front. A single human being is worth more than all multiverses.
                i'm not sure how this relates to anything I've said.

                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                The rights of the human person are not absolute, for man is always and in all things subject to his Creator. Whatever rights man has, therefore, are bounded by, and founded upon, his relation to the God in Whose Image he has been created. God has claims upon man, and the most basic of these is the right to be acknowledged as God. So there can be no true right to worship any other God - at most, there can be an imagined right to do so, founded in positive law but not in the equity that laws ought to embody. Rights are true rights, rights worthy of that name, only if they reflect the known Character and Will of God. If they are contrary to this, they are no true rights at all, but are imaginary rights. Abortion is a grave evil - therefore, there can be no true (because God-given) right to have an abortion. Since this imaginary right has however been conceded, it can be argued that, in order to avoid worse evils, the unjust legislation that allows this unjust practice must be tolerated, until such time as something better can take its place. It can be tolerated, but not approved. And this injustice cannot be opposed by bombing abortion facilities, or murdering medical personnel who perform abortions, or by maligning politicians.
                Again, all of this assumes a religions worldview - and which I believe the state should be silent.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #38
                  Deleted duplicate
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    That is exactly how I took your remark about "religions belong in churches." The fact is that my faith in Jesus Christ is a major influence in my voting, and I have every right to use whatever I see fit to inform my vote. That can well be seen as an imposition of my faith atheists.
                    I agree that your religion will (and should) inform your vote. I do not see how that is an imposition of your faith on atheists, unless your vote is to require government to endorse a religion.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                      Another question, for carpe alone, please.

                      If you saw a bill of any denomination lying on the ground, would you pick it up?

                      Or would you leave it there for someone with fewer scruples than you to take?

                      At what denomination would you deign to stoop down at pick it up?
                      Interesting that you ask this. It just happened to me in the parking lot in front of the hotel. While I tend to eschew cash in general, I tend to pick up "found" money and put it in a folder I keep for charitable donations. I don't usually bother with small coins.

                      And someone who believes in god and picks it up is not showing "fewer scruples." The motto aligns with their beliefs.

                      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                      I'd also like you to answer my other questions.
                      Done.
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-30-2018, 04:26 PM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Except we live in a Country that grounds human rights in God, our founding declaration. You just can not separate religion (especially the Christian religion) from the nature and character of this nation.

                        http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/
                        Our declaration of independence is not our "founding" document. It simply declared our intent to separate from England. Our founding document is our Constitution - the document that established our system of government and serves as the basis for all of our laws. The founders explicitly omitted any reference to god from this document - which tells us something. And the one reference made to religion forbids the government from establishing a religion or preventing the free exercise thereof.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          I find it ironic that a guy who hated the idea of a National Bank is on our national currency.
                          True dat...
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                            I don't care what the currency says on it. I know the majority of people in your country and mine do not trust in God. They have other gods and money is one of them, of course. As Jesus told the Pharisees and Herodians, "render unto Caesar", etc. Money is nothing to me. And what it says on it means nothing to me.

                            I carry some cash with me all the time. However, I already mostly use electronic means. More for convenience than anything else.

                            I think you should not celebrate Christmas, regardless of your family's wishes. It is a Christian holy day, and that goes against what you believe.
                            Christmas originated as a Christian holy day, and is still celebrated as such by many. It has also become a cultural holiday - for gift giving and gathering. Christmas is more about "Santa" and "Rudolph" to me than "Jesus" and the dawn of Christianity. I have no problem joining in the festivities - I am not celebrating "Jesus," I am celebrating family and friends.

                            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                            Just like "in God we trust" on the money.

                            Now, my other question to you is still awaiting a reply.
                            Answered...
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by carpe
                              Christmas originated as a Christian holy day, and is still celebrated as such by many. It has also become a cultural holiday - for gift giving and gathering. Christmas is more about "Santa" and "Rudolph" to me than "Jesus" and the dawn of Christianity. I have no problem joining in the festivities - I am not celebrating "Jesus," I am celebrating family and friends.
                              So, it doesn't bother you that pagan culture has misappropriated a particular holy day and secularized it beyond description.

                              But it disturbs you enough to make a thread about it here that the money of the country you live in has a motto on it that you don't agree with. And you refrain from using that currency to make a point. To whom, I'm not sure.

                              In other words, you want every mention of God, specifically the Christian God, removed from anything and everything, regardless of the reasons why those mentions were in place at the beginning of your country. And you don't want believers to have even the slightest ability at all to declare their faith openly in public.

                              Well, I want you to only celebrate Christmas as commemorating the birth of the Saviour, Creator, and Sustainer of the Universe. If you can't do that, I don't want you to celebrate Christmas at all.

                              But, I won't hold my breath on that one......
                              Answered...
                              Yes, I see.


                              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Our declaration of independence is not our "founding" document. It simply declared our intent to separate from England. Our founding document is our Constitution - the document that established our system of government and serves as the basis for all of our laws. The founders explicitly omitted any reference to god from this document - which tells us something. And the one reference made to religion forbids the government from establishing a religion or preventing the free exercise thereof.
                                Nonsense, not according to the National Archives: https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs

                                And again, the Constitution does not deal with the source of rights, that was already established by the DoI.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                14 responses
                                42 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                78 responses
                                411 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X