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Which OT Laws are carried over to the NT?

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  • #31
    All the moral laws are still in effect. All the civil punishments for said moral laws SHOULD still be in effect, but unfortunately our cowardly godless leaders do not enforce them.

    To the people asking whether homosexuality and incest with your mother are permissible: In numerous places the New Testament explicitly condemns fornication, which (from the Old Testament) was understood to include both of those acts. So the New Testament explicitly condemns both of those acts, on numerous occasions.

    Comment


    • #32
      I'd like to use Genesis 2:24 as a test case as I see it invoked elsewhere. I don't think verses like this by themselves are sufficient to prohibit homosexuality. After all, if somebody was taking care of their elderly parents, they would not be able to fulfill that verse as written because they might not be "leaving" their parents by moving out, but I hope no Christian would argue that they could not still get married. Considering we have six other verses that directly prohibit homosexuality, why not just stick to those?
      Last edited by KingsGambit; 06-09-2018, 07:48 PM.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        All the moral laws are still in effect. All the civil punishments for said moral laws SHOULD still be in effect, but unfortunately our cowardly godless leaders do not enforce them.

        To the people asking whether homosexuality and incest with your mother are permissible: In numerous places the New Testament explicitly condemns fornication, which (from the Old Testament) was understood to include both of those acts. So the New Testament explicitly condemns both of those acts, on numerous occasions.
        So why did Paul welcome ex-homosexuals into his church (1 Cor 6:11) instead of whining about why Caesar didn't stone them?
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #34
          I don't know. I guess because he was too busy, in Romans 13, praising Caesar for killing a sufficient number of people.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
            Disagree totally. With both parts.

            1. Gen. 4 is not biography.
            Whether or not all the details, especially in terms of length of time, are correct, I find it theologically important if not indispensable that there be a literal "original couple." I realize this is impossible according to biology, genetics, etc., and so I reject the current conclusions of the natural sciences on this point.

            2. If God can be OK with incest, which is unrighteous later on, His Righteousness either:

            a) is OK with what is evil - or
            b) changes its moral content, so that incest, from being OK, becomes wicked - or
            c) the Divine attitude to incest is changeable and capricious - or
            d) the OT is just a lot of people writing down their best, fallible, guesses as to God’s Character - or
            e) the OT may reveal God’s Righteous Character, but the readers have to guess which parts reveal it, & which don’t.
            I take the proscription of incest to be pragmatic rather than moral.

            If God can be OK with incest, why not with genocide, and with God knows what other horrors ? God, one assumes, must be at least as righteous as a morally good man. So if human beings are not OK with incest, I don’t see how God, Who is Infinite in Goodness, Righteousness and Holiness, can have been OK with it. STM the widespread and ancient taboo against incest is a reflection of God’s Righteousness.
            God actively commanded genocide on at least one occasion, so in that case at least, He was apparently "Ok" with it.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Goalpost move.
              Fine.

              Sex with one's birth mother is creepy and "ew" -- and genetically stupid -- but not inherently immoral.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                Problem is, this argument is big among the pro homosexuality crowd, who dont see it as a violation of the two great commandments. We have more work to do.
                I have to agree with them.

                I believe their behavior is at least aberrant in terms of Scripture, and subjectively gross. But I find Scripture inconsistent on the issue, and cannot in good conscience claim it to be "sin" in all cases.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                  Ephesians 2:14-15 states, "For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace."

                  Jesus is our peace who has broken down the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances. What are these ordinances?
                  Or "commandments and regulations." Or "commandments in ordinances." Or "commandments in regulations." But I don't see why the detailed wording matters here. Whether the "commandments" were "expressed in" ordinances, "contained in" ordinances, or existed alongside ("and") ordinances, it was the Law that was abolished. Why does it matter what the "ordinances" were?

                  What did Jesus mean when He said that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but to fulfill them?
                  Whatever He meant at the time, He meant while speaking to people under a Covenant no longer in effect. Hebrews makes clear that that Covenant is now Obsolete, and when it was replaced by the New Covenant, the Law changed also.

                  Whatever He meant at the time, we know He did not mean the Law would remain intact, because He Himself directly overturned at least the food laws in Mark 7.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                    All the moral laws are still in effect. All the civil punishments for said moral laws SHOULD still be in effect, but unfortunately our cowardly godless leaders do not enforce them.
                    This kind of foolishness is one reason I'm delighted we don't live in a de jure "Christian" nation.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      Fine.

                      Sex with one's birth mother is creepy and "ew" -- and genetically stupid -- but not inherently immoral.
                      You still haven't put it back.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        Fine.

                        Sex with one's birth mother is creepy and "ew" -- and genetically stupid -- but not inherently immoral.
                        Sure it is. Divine command theory FTW
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                          Sex with one's birth mother is creepy and "ew" -- and genetically stupid -- but not inherently immoral.
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          Sure it is. Divine command theory FTW
                          This is actually one act considered so immoral that even the gentiles thought it evil.

                          1 Corinthians 5:1,
                          It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife.
                          Ironically, the City of Corinth plays a prominent part in the story of Oedipus the King.
                          When I Survey....

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Faber View Post
                            This is actually one act considered so immoral that even the gentiles thought it evil.

                            1 Corinthians 5:1,

                            Ironically, the City of Corinth plays a prominent part in the story of Oedipus the King.
                            To nitpick a little, it appears that the incident in 1 Corinthians was the guy's stepmother, not his mother. But if anything that just points to how much worse it would have been if it had been his mother.

                            I find it interesting how Paul rebukes the church for being "proud". I see a parallel today with some churches that have people unrepentantly involved in homosexual sin and being proud of how inclusive they are.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              To nitpick a little, it appears that the incident in 1 Corinthians was the guy's stepmother, not his mother. But if anything that just points to how much worse it would have been if it had been his mother.

                              I find it interesting how Paul rebukes the church for being "proud". I see a parallel today with some churches that have people unrepentantly involved in homosexual sin and being proud of how inclusive they are.
                              Years ago, a Church in Austin was getting notoriety for ministering to homosexuals, which, if that were true, would be a GOOD thing. But the fact was that their website was actually boasting about how many of their STAFF members were gay or lesbian or trans.


                              ETA: I see they have revammped their website and no longer are as "in your face" about their gay leadership.
                              EATA: Wow, just looking at some of the churches in Austin....

                              bathroom-sign-stars_1_orig.jpg
                              Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-19-2018, 07:04 PM.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Years ago, a Church in Austin was getting notoriety for ministering to homosexuals, which, if that were true, would be a GOOD thing. But the fact was that their website was actually boasting about how many of their STAFF members were gay or lesbian or trans.


                                ETA: I see they have revammped their website and no longer are as "in your face" about their gay leadership.
                                What did they mean by "gay"? Did they mean attracted or active?

                                I don't think either would be a great look for a church, of course. You don't see churches advertising that they have alcoholic pastors on their website, even if it's true.
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                                Comment

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