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SCOTUS & gay wedding cakes

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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The baker chose to not provide the service, thus following his conscience/beliefs without engaging in prejudice.
    You were OK up to the highlighted part. That part cannot be avoided in the context of his choice.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      To be consistent you should be demanding that black bakers cater a KKK wedding, even being forced to make a cake saying something to the effect of "Ship All The [n-word] Back to Africa" complete with a little figure of a lynched black person. If they balk they should then be branded as bigots and threatened with having their business destroyed.

      And how about a Jewish baker being compelled to design a birthday cake for some neo-Nazis in the shape of the concentration camp at Auschwitz complete with little smokestack shaped candles.
      I have responded to all of this in previous posts, and showed how these parallels fail.

      As with the other thread, this one is basically stuck in a loop and will continue endlessly, with everyone repeating the same arguments until someone decides to get off the merry-go-round. So I am going to do exactly that. If something new surfaces in the posts, I'll be happy to respond. If someone asks me a direct question I have not responded to, I will likewise be happy to respond. Otherwise, I will leave the last word to you.

      Sparko - I think this is where you follow up with a post trying to egg me back into the discussion...
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Yep - I did. And if he provides those services to "couples marrying," he is discriminating and showing bigotry/prejudice when he refuses to provide those services for all marrying couples. He can avoid the problem by simply not providing wedding cakes and turning to other themed cakes that are not problematic (e.g., retirement cakes, birthday cakes, grand-opening cakes, etc.). There are many contexts in which custom cakes are requested, and a perfectly adequate income can be derived. And there is the entire rest of the universe of bakery goods.
        And you don't see how you are forcing the categorization of both the product and the people to fit your narrative? We all see it, and find it disingenuous of you.

        Rather than admit the baker is objecting to making a cake is for a gay wedding, you have to find a way to always bring it back to genetics or the people, despite the fact that he has sold items to gay couples in the past for other events. So here instead of admitting he is against gay marriage, you redefine it as "couples marrying" who happen to be "the same sex" so he is discriminating.

        Yet, would you have a problem if he refused to make a wedding cake for a heterosexual couple if they were siblings? Or if he refused to make a wedding cake for a couple who were each previously divorced and he said he didn't believe in divorce so the new marriage was invalid?

        The guy insists it was because of the event. SCOTUS agreed. Only you refuse to admit it or take him at his word. Because you have an agenda and like a dog with a bone, you are not going to give it up. No matter how wrong you are.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          You were OK up to the highlighted part. That part cannot be avoided in the context of his choice.
          That's not what your post said.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            That's not what your post said.
            OK - I'm intrigued. Where did any post I made support your statement...?
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              To be consistent you should be demanding that black bakers cater a KKK wedding, even being forced to make a cake saying something to the effect of "Ship All The [n-word] Back to Africa" complete with a little figure of a lynched black person. If they balk they should then be branded as bigots and threatened with having their business destroyed.

              And how about a Jewish baker being compelled to design a birthday cake for some neo-Nazis in the shape of the concentration camp at Auschwitz complete with little smokestack shaped candles.
              No-one is asking for wedding cakes decorated with Christian corpses.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                No-one is asking for wedding cakes decorated with Christian corpses... yet
                FIFY n/c

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  FIFY n/c
                  Well if/when they do, you can resurrect your argument.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    Well if/when they do, you can resurrect your argument.
                    One should always consider extreme cases. Because there are always jerks out there who will take things to extremes just to see what they can get away with.
                    Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                      One should always consider extreme cases. Because there are always jerks out there who will take things to extremes just to see what they can get away with.
                      To quote my dear older little twin brother from another mother: "This is about me, isn't it? "





                      ETA: On a more serious note, it seems that more often than not it is what were considered "extreme cases" that end up in the courts.
                      Last edited by rogue06; 06-15-2018, 09:59 AM.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                        One should always consider extreme cases. Because there are always jerks out there who will take things to extremes just to see what they can get away with.
                        True - but one should not conflate them with non-extreme cases in order to promote extreme solutions that aren't justified.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                          True - but one should not conflate them with non-extreme cases in order to promote extreme solutions that aren't justified.
                          It doesn't require an extreme solution in this case. The baker should be able to follow his conscience and refuse to design cakes as he desires, with exceptions. He shouldn't have to design a cake that celebrates KKK values, for example. But there are anti-discrimination laws concerning certain classes of people that he needs to follow.
                          Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            So you also agree the commission erred when it did not require homosexual bakers to make anti-gay marriage cakes? THIS it a key point in the case we're debating and a big part of why Colorado lost.
                            No, I think you're confusing discrimination law Tea. Any baker refusing to bake such a cake would not be discriminating against the customer, he would be refusing to participate in the customers discrimination against gays in general. Actually I don't think that an "anti-gay marriage cake" makes any sense anyway. What is an anti gay marriage cake? If by that you mean to imply a "same sex marriage cake", then the Homosexual baker, like any other baker, would of course have to make the cake.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                              It doesn't require an extreme solution in this case. The baker should be able to follow his conscience and refuse to design cakes as he desires, with exceptions.
                              The Civil Rights Act of 1964 outlaws all discrimination based on race, colour, religion, sex, or national origin in 'public accommodations' (which include cake shops). It does not allow exemptions in cases of personal conscience, whether it is about catering to gays, blacks, Jews or anyone else the proprietor has antipathy for...for whatever reason.

                              He shouldn't have to design a cake that celebrates KKK values, for example. But there are anti-discrimination laws concerning certain classes of people that he needs to follow
                              Certainly nobody should b required to decorate a cake with hate speech, although the laws against this in the US are comparatively unregulated when compared to that of most other similar countries.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                The Civil Rights Act of 1964 outlaws all discrimination based on race, colour, religion, sex, or national origin in 'public accommodations' (which include cake shops). It does not allow exemptions in cases of personal conscience, whether it is about catering to gays, blacks, Jews or anyone else the proprietor has antipathy for...for whatever reason.
                                I note that sexual deviants are not included in that law, despite your attempts to insinuate otherwise.
                                Certainly nobody should b required to decorate a cake with hate speech, although the laws against this in the US are comparatively unregulated when compared to that of most other similar countries.
                                True. Most other countries do not have freedom of speech codified in their constitution.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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