SCOTUS & gay wedding cakes

[Cow Poke]

The freedom of one man ALWAYS ends where the freedom of another begins.

That's quite a statement. Are you sure you've thought that through?

[carpedm9587]

That's quite a statement. Are you sure you've thought that through?

Yes. Freedom is always a compromise. You have a right to live, which means I do not have the freedom to kill you. You have a right to your property, which means I lack the freedom to take what I need/want whenever I need/want it. My right to clean water constrains your right to dump anything you want on your land if it will compromise my water supply. My right to physical safety constrains your right to hunt near my home. My right to safety constrains your right to use cheap building materials when putting up your skyscraper. When we live in a society, our freedoms are compromises designed to make our society function.

[Cow Poke]

Yes. Freedom is always a compromise. You have a right to live, which means I do not have the freedom to kill you. You have a right to your property, which means I lack the freedom to take what I need/want whenever I need/want it. My right to clean water constrains your right to dump anything you want on your land if it will compromise my water supply. My right to physical safety constrains your right to hunt near my home. My right to safety constrains your right to use cheap building materials when putting up your skyscraper. When we live in a society, our freedoms are compromises designed to make our society function.

You gave some examples, but your statement was....

The freedom of one man ALWAYS ends where the freedom of another begins.

Are there no exceptions to that? Ever?

[seer]

So the person who says, "the white business man should be free to put 'whites only' in the window of their store is trading the freedom of the black man for the freedom of the white. The person who says, "the business man should be free to put 'no Jews allowed' in the window of their store is trading the freedom of the Jewish man for the freedom of the business man.

No, the black man or Jew is free to start and run his own business as he sees fit, and not serve whites if they so choose. And even in the deep south the white businesses generally served blacks, or they would go out of business, with some restrictions of course.

[carpedm9587]

No, the black man or Jew is free to start and run his own business as he sees fit, and not serve whites if they so choose. And even in the deep south the white businesses generally served blacks, or they would go out of business, with some restrictions of course.

No one said anything about the black man or Jewish man starting or not starting a business. The question was about the freedom of these people to walk down the street of a city, and NOT be subjected to the hatred/intimidation associated with such signs. This was the deep south only 6 decades ago, and you would advocate for a return to it?

And then you wonder why people would jump to the conclusion that you (and those who think like you) are racist?

[seer]

Yes. Freedom is always a compromise. You have a right to live, which means I do not have the freedom to kill you. You have a right to your property, which means I lack the freedom to take what I need/want whenever I need/want it.

But my business is my property, and you are saying that you do have a right to that business/property and my labor.

[Zymologist]

Yes - and for 250 years of our history racism was widespread, accepted, and tolerated. Now it's not. If a person wants to start a business, they can offer any service they wish - but it is immoral, illegal, and (IMO) unamerican to deny that service on the basis of race, sex, etc.



Then I suggest you not complain over-much at the accusations of racism when you openly endorse a return to a world in which we publicly sanctioned racism.

Serious question: can I oppose anti-discrimination laws without being a racist? Is it possible that there are other reasons for such a position?

[JimL]

Serious question: can I oppose anti-discrimination laws without being a racist? Is it possible that there are other reasons for such a position?

There could always be other reasons, that doesn't mean they are legit though.

[Zymologist]

There could always be other reasons, that doesn't mean they are legit though.

So if I oppose anti-discrimination laws, I am a racist?

[JimL]

But my business is my property, and you are saying that you do have a right to that business/property and my labor.

I think what's being argued seer is not that the government has a right to your business, that's silly, but that the government has a right to regulate your business. That's what government does, it makes laws that apply equally to all members of society for the betterment of society. I know, you disagree, you think that as a business you personally should be able to discriminate. So what? We already, as a society, adjudicated that!

[JimL]

So if I oppose anti-discrimination laws, I am a racist?

Nope, you could be of course, but not necessarily.

[carpedm9587]

But my business is my property, and you are saying that you do have a right to that business/property and my labor.

No. I am saying that I have the same right to your business/property and labor that you extend to anyone else. No one is requiring you to start a business or offer a service. You're not a slave. You ARE being told you cannot offer that service in a discriminatory fashion.

[carpedm9587]

Serious question: can I oppose anti-discrimination laws without being a racist? Is it possible that there are other reasons for such a position?

Absolutely. I don't think Seer is a racist for one second. I am simply pointing out that if he keeps adopting positions that make life harder for minorities, he should probably not be surprised if they see him as a racist.

The voter ID is a great case in point. In general, the purpose of the right is to reduce Democratic presence at the polls. Yes, I know they claim it is about voter fraud, but anyone who has actually dug into that claim cannot take it seriously for one second. Reducing Democratic votes is a bit unamerican, but it's not racist and it is understandable in a "win at all costs" mentality. But one way to reduce Democratic votes is to fight for VoterID laws and enact them a) without time for people to get the IDs, and b) without a financial mechanism for helping those who cannot afford them. The people most likely not to be able to get the IDs tend to be Democrats and, bingo - lower Democractic turn-out. Unfortunately, minorities in the U.S are disproportionately poor, so they are disproportionately impacted.

Then there is the NC Voter ID situation, where the Republicans gather information about which IDs were used to register to vote, asked for the information to be broken down by race and ethnicity, and then specifically sought to eliminate as options IDs predominantly used by minorities, leading the courts to describe it as "surgically designed to impact minorities." Again, the intent was to reduce Democratic votes - but THAT one hovered pretty dangerously close to being outright racist.

[Sparko]

I think what's being argued seer is not that the government has a right to your business, that's silly, but that the government has a right to regulate your business. That's what government does, it makes laws that apply equally to all members of society for the betterment of society. I know, you disagree, you think that as a business you personally should be able to discriminate. So what? We already, as a society, adjudicated that!

So governments are never wrong?

[Sparko]

No. I am saying that I have the same right to your business/property and labor that you extend to anyone else. No one is requiring you to start a business or offer a service. You're not a slave. You ARE being told you cannot offer that service in a discriminatory fashion.

So you think it is OK to force an artist to create custom artwork for you?

Can a KKK group demand a graphic artist create a website and logo for their next cross burning event? After all the graphic artist's service is to provide logos for his clients.