SCOTUS & gay wedding cakes

[Sparko]

Right, so just as you have argued in the past, it has nothing to do with the cake itself, it has to do with the event, and the event has to do with the nature of the people participating in the event, which is therefore discrimination against the people themselves no less so than if he refused to make a cake for the wedding of an interacial couple.

It has to do with him using his talent to create a cake for an event that goes against his religious beliefs. As we have been saying all along.

[Leonhard]

Is the bottom cake a heterosexual cake or a gay cake?

They're works of art. Art is free speech. You're repeating yourself needlessly. If you're asking if you can make a cake that conveys a political message, sure. These cakes are more neutral though. But the last thing I want is a law that legislates what kinds of art are politically charged, and which aren't.

The baker should have the right to refuse using his artistic skills in service of a message he doesn't support.

[Leonhard]

Right, so just as you have argued in the past, it has nothing to do with the cake itself, it has to do with the event, and the event has to do with the nature of the people participating in the event, which is therefore discrimination against the people themselves no less so than if he refused to make a cake for the wedding of an interacial couple.

That's like saying that because you won't print t-shirts for a pro-life rally (which did happen), it means you're an anti-religious bigot.

[Cow Poke]

They're works of art. Art is free speech. You're repeating yourself needlessly. If you're asking if you can make a cake that conveys a political message, sure. These cakes are more neutral though. But the last thing I want is a law that legislates what kinds of art are politically charged, and which aren't.

The baker should have the right to refuse using his artistic skills in service of a message he doesn't support.

Unless, of course, you're a tolerant liberal absolutely fixated on wielding the hammer of justice to destroy another person's livelihood.

[Leonhard]

Unless, of course, you're a tolerant liberal absolutely fixated on wielding the hammer of justice to destroy another person's livelihood.

And transparently so. Only it wouldn't be the hammer of justice in this case. It would be the hammer of law, used in the service of something other than justice.

[Cow Poke]

And transparently so. Only it wouldn't be the hammer of justice in this case. It would be the hammer of law, used in the service of something other than justice.

True - and good clarification!

[Starlight]

I've never seen a No True Scotsman used about cakes. They're art Starlight, they're specific, they can be charged with religious or cultural symbolism. For instance if a couple was crazy Redskins fans, and wanted a wedding cake in the shape of that mascot, I would also grant that a baker who's sensitive to such issues would decline from making something like that.

And as we've said before on this thread, if the baker had a Standard-A Form Wedding Cake sold with implements to write messages on it etc - likely at reduced cost, I don't see any Christians who'd lose sleep over selling something like that, no matter what purpose it was used for.

I personally don't care how excrementally ugly you think those cakes are. Freedom of Speech don't merely cover those few things which are worth keeping.

Try responding to what I wrote. This response is not relevant to anything I said.

I commented on specific cakes. Your response about how hypothetical cakes could be created artistically has no relevance. And you comment about "I personally don't care how excrementally ugly you think those cakes are" seems utterly bizarre, as I didn't say anything on that subject. Are you imagining things?

[Starlight]

They're works of art. Art is free speech.

I think art can be used as free speech or in the service of it. But art can also just be pretty decoration. In that latter sense it is not "speaking" in any manner other than "this is pretty".

The baker should have the right to refuse using his artistic skills in service of a message he doesn't support.

If the baker was being asked to create an artistic display that said "Gay marriage is wonderful" in huge letters with scenes of gay sex artistically depicted by him surrounding it, sure. That's clearly "speech" and clearly political.

If the baker is being asked to create a cake decorated with a few flowers, then that's not a "message" it's not "speech", it's a pretty standard cake the likes of which millions of which have been made. It's not some sort of amazing artistic free speech expression that needs protection. It's a run of the mill business doing a run of the mill job. And standard anti-discrimination laws should, of course, apply.

[Cow Poke]

I think art can be used as free speech or in the service of it. But art can also just be pretty decoration. In that latter sense it is not "speaking" in any manner other than "this is pretty".

So, lemme get this straight - some guy can put a plastic cross in a jar, pee in it, and that's "art" and free speech, and not even pretty, and NEA pays for it...

[Starlight]

So, lemme get this straight - some guy can put a plastic cross in a jar, pee in it, and that's "art" and free speech, and not even pretty, and NEA pays for it...

I have zero idea what you are talking about. But am wondering if you are drunk.

[Cow Poke]

I have zero idea what you are talking about. But am wondering if you are drunk.

I don't drink, so it would be pretty odd for me to be drunk. Look up Andres Serrano.

[Cow Poke]

I have zero idea what you are talking about. But am wondering if you are drunk.

This is cute. You're clueless, therefore, I must be drunk. You ARE entertaining!

[Starlight]

Look up Andres Serrano.

Okay, so some artists are crazy IMO. I've never really understood the appeal of modern art. I confess I'm much more a logic person than I am an art person and insofar as I appreciate art it's in the sense of "I think that is a really pretty painting" and "I am impressed by the amount of skill required to create that". Art never really "speaks" to me. I would prefer a thousand times over to attend an interesting seminar than to visit an art gallery. But I understand that the world is a big place and plenty of people have different opinions and I am happy to live and let live. And if it makes some people happy to imagine they are doing something amazing with their art by putting toilet seats on roofs or pee in a jar, good for them. I will continue to ignore them.

But when it comes to cake baking... let's imagine an interracial couple turns up to be married. There's still a small minority in the US who oppose interracial marriage according to polling. Let's say the baker objects to interracial marriage. If the couple wants a fairly standard wedding cake with a few tiers and some floral decorations, and the baker objects because he "doesn't do" interracial marriages, then my response is "shut up and bake, you're in the business of cake production, and this is a standard type of wedding cake, and anti-discrimination protections exist so you have to serve customers and not discriminate". If the couple wants a cake that specifically goes out of its way to celebrate the notion of interracial marriage, and they specifically want the baker to dig deep into his artistic abilities to create imaginative decorations that specifically focus on the interracial marriage aspect, then if the baker objects, I think that is fairly a free speech issue and he has a good case. Basically if there's nothing inherent in the cake that is to do with the interracial couple aspect of the marriage, I think the baker has zero case, but if there is something unusual about the cake where artistic abilities are being utilized directly with respect to the interracial marriage issue, then there is a case. (And the out-of-the-box figurines of the couple on top of the cake don't count unless the baker is himself hand-crafting them)

[Cow Poke]

Okay, so some artists are crazy IMO.

Yeah, but the whole art world went gaga!

[Starlight]

Yeah, but the whole art world went gaga!

How wonderful for them. I neither noticed at the time nor particularly care now that I have been told. I am glad in a generalized and non-specific sort of way to know it made them happy, or excited, or gave them something to talk about, or gave them a belief they were doing meaningful things, or whatever you mean by gaga.