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  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    There are real NT documents with author idenity attached to them. No real evidence to the contrary.
    They do not exist nor any reference in the literature prior to ~100 AD.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Oral tradition? What is physical evidence and dating of this oral tradition? Says who?
      There is no evidence or dating of “real NT documents with author identity attached to them” in the first century.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        There is no evidence or dating of “real NT documents with author identity attached to them” in the first century.
        We don't have any complete manuscripts of the gospels from the first century. But every complete manuscript of the gospels we have does have the correct 4 authors attached to them.

        When all the evidence we have supports the gospels being written by Mark, Luke, Matthew and John, then it is up to you to provide actual counter evidence to claim otherwise. Imaginary evidence is not evidence.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          They do not exist nor any reference in the literature prior to ~100 AD.
          Read Sparko's reply.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Read Sparko's reply.
            His argument is like saying that there wasn't any color in the world prior to 100 years ago because we don't have any color photographs from before then.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Read Sparko's reply.
              No objective verifiable evidence external to the Bible provided by either Sparko nor you.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                No objective verifiable evidence external to the Bible provided by either Sparko nor you.
                The manuscripts are not in the bible. It IS the bible. It is external evidence. We are talking about the physical documents themselves, you freaking moron. The evidence of history (the church, scholars, historians) and of the very documents themselves all show that the 4 authors ARE the actual authors of the gospels. Not to mention we have other documents that refer to the manuscripts and their contents, and books about them.

                There is NO contrary evidence.

                What a freaking idiot you are Frank.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  No objective verifiable evidence external to the Bible provided by either Sparko nor you.
                  Did you read the pdf that I provided the link for? Have you heard of the Nestle -Aland Greek New Testament? It is one of a number of such works.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    Did you read the pdf that I provided the link for? Have you heard of the Nestle -Aland Greek New Testament? It is one of a number of such works.
                    That link was deleted as an official Mod Action - it was argument by weblink, and is against the rules. You need to at least do a summary of what it's going to say - you can't just expect somebody to read the whole thing to see what it was you were trying to get across.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      That link was deleted as an official Mod Action - it was argument by weblink, and is against the rules. You need to at least do a summary of what it's going to say - you can't just expect somebody to read the whole thing to see what it was you were trying to get across.
                      It was of a pdf which was written in regard to the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament suggesting improvements to that work. It was provided because as I understood shunydragon he was requesting that type of information.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        It was of a pdf which was written in regard to the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament suggesting improvements to that work. It was provided because as I understood shunydragon he was requesting that type of information.
                        No, I was requesting objective evidence dating before ~100 AD that documents the authorship of the gospels. Nothing provided so far meets that criteria.

                        i provided a good Christian Source, not atheist, that supports the documentary hypothesis.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          No, I was requesting objective evidence dating before ~100 AD that documents the authorship of the gospels. Nothing provided so far meets that criteria.

                          i provided a good Christian Source, not atheist, that supports the documentary hypothesis.
                          Two things. 1) No such documents as yet have been found. 2) Hypothesis does not mean endorsement by them. The oldest manuscripts known have the same names associated with the gospels.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Two things. 1) No such documents as yet have been found. 2) Hypothesis does not mean endorsement by them. The oldest manuscripts known have the same names associated with the gospels.
                            The oldest intact manuscripts are not that old and a matter of fact very late in Biblical history. Oldest known roughly close to complete gospels date from about the 3rd and 4th century.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-20-2018, 10:19 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              It was of a pdf which was written in regard to the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament suggesting improvements to that work. It was provided because as I understood shunydragon he was requesting that type of information.
                              The committee for the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament consisted of leading NT scholars Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Bruce Metzger, Allen Paul Wikgren and Carlo Maria Martini; their translations were based upon the best available original manuscripts.

                              "ALL the texts had variants and the choice of which variant text to use was based on the majority vote of the committee. None of the texts could be thought of as the original texts, such texts no longer exist." The best the experts can achieve is make best guesses as to what the original text said.
                              .
                              An Introduction To The New Testament Textual Criticism, 1986, Cambridge University Press.
                              Last edited by Tassman; 06-21-2018, 02:28 AM.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                The committee for the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament consisted of leading NT scholars Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Bruce Metzger, Allen Paul Wikgren and Carlo Maria Martini; their translations were based upon the best available original manuscripts.

                                "ALL the texts had variants and the choice of which variant text to use was based on the majority vote of the committee. None of the texts could be thought of as the original texts, such texts no longer exist." The best the experts can achieve is make best guesses as to what the original text said.
                                .
                                An Introduction To The New Testament Textual Criticism, 1986, Cambridge University Press.
                                There is a minority of scholars which would disagree with many of their choices as to the original reading of texts too. There is a common consensus by scholars on both sides of the readings that the gospel manuscripts included the names for which they are named too.
                                Last edited by 37818; 06-21-2018, 04:03 PM.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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