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Book Plunge: 36 Arguments For The Existence Of God --- A Work of Fiction

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  • Book Plunge: 36 Arguments For The Existence Of God --- A Work of Fiction

    What do I think of this novel?

    The link can be found here.

    ----

    What do I think of Rebecca Goldstein's book published by Pantheon Books? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    When I read through Steven Pinker's Enlightenment Now, he referred to this book as a book to deal with the arguments for God. I decided I'd order it to see what it was like. I have started it and really I don't see how this book deals with the arguments for God thus far.

    The book deals with an atheist celebrity of sorts who studies the psychology of religion named Cass Seltzer. The problem I have though is that I really can't find anything likable about this character. I don't see any real personality and he seems rather bland. I don't think the book thus far has dealt with the existence of God at all, but even as a novel I find it boring.

    This isn't because of ideological differences. As a story, I could actually enjoy The Da Vinci Code. The history in it is awful, but the story isn't that bad. (Don't go see the movie. The movie was terrible!) I think the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov is some wonderful science fiction. I enjoyed reading Huxley's Brave New World as well as Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm. I have strong ideological differences with all those authors, but the stories weren't bad.

    I can't say the same about Goldstein. What is disappointing though is that this book is meant to deal with arguments for God, but it really doesn't seem to do that at all. The first chapter is about something called the argument from the improbable self. It's along the lines apparently of asking how I came to be me where I am. Seltzer starts thinking in the piece about existence and yet doesn't appear to do anything. It's as if he's on the verge of something and then stops. (To be fair, the appendix I see does deal with more of the arguments so that will be interesting to see. I don't expect much though since she says for the cosmological argument that the first premise is "Everything that exists must have a cause." No great thinker in academia ever has ever defended such a notion for this argument.)

    As the story goes on, various arguments seem to be dealt with, but it's really hard to see how they are. If all that really deals with the arguments is the appendix, this book could have been much shorter. All we see is Seltzer attending scientific meetings and interacting with some women in his life. None of this really shows an atheist taking seriously the arguments.

    I am thinking then at this point that I might not be able to write much anything more about this until we do get to the appendix, which is a shame. The story as it is is just rather boring and I don't have any connection to the characters whatsoever. If things change, I will let you know out there, but if they don't, then we will just deal with the theistic arguments in the appendix when I get there.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    Ah, any argument for the existence of God fails. Here is why. First, existence does not need proof, God does in the arguments. So any argument for the existence of anything. That thing is not God. Uncaused existence does not need any god.

    Secondly, the necessity for God. Answer this, why does a self evident truth need God to be true? Existence is the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident.

    [Proverbs 21:30]
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #3
      Is this the lady that debated William lane craig and Jordan Peterson? Also it isnt that everything that exist has a cause the statement is everything that begins to exist has a cause.
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TheWall View Post
        Is this the lady that debated William lane craig and Jordan Peterson? Also it isnt that everything that exist has a cause the statement is everything that begins to exist has a cause.
        I don't know if she debated them or not.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
          I don't know if she debated them or not.
          If it was i remember craig and peterson doing quite well.
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Time to wrap it up.

            The link can be found here.

            ----

            How do the arguments stand? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

            Okay. I kind of cheated. I saw that all the arguments are in the appendix and that's why I ordered the book from the library so I decided to skip the novel since I have many other books waiting to be read and get to the meat of the issue. How does Rebecca Goldstein handle the arguments?

            Goldstein lists 36 arguments. I have been in apologetics for nearly 20 years and some of these arguments I have never before seen used. Many are left out, such as the arguments of Thomas Aquinas and the argument from the resurrection of Jesus.

            Let's start with the first argument she deals with, the Cosmological Argument. The first premise she has listed in the argument is "Everything that exists must have a cause." When seeing that, it's hard to not think about Edward Feser's epic takedown of this kind of nonsense. Note Feser also includes "What caused God?" as a dumb objection.

            Feser rightly points out that no prominent defender of the Cosmological argument in history has ever said the argument is that everything has a cause. Maybe your local pastor who doesn't know the argument well might say that, but it is not said by serious philosophers. How did Goldstein make such a basic mistake?

            If this is the first objection also, we have to wonder how seriously one should take Goldstein on the others since this is a basic mistake. It leaves one considering that Goldstein has never read any serious work on the cosmological argument. If she has, that could be even worse because she badly misunderstood whatever it is she read.

            Many arguments from this point on are scientific and I have no wish to look at those as I am not a scientist, or they are arguments that I would never use and have not seen anyone else use. The next one I want to look at is the argument from miracles. However, to really look at that, I have to leapfrog ahead to another argument. That's the argument from holy books.

            Of course, it is a fallacious argument to assume that the book can only be the Word of God if God exists. but I am interested instead in dealing with the flaw in her look at flaws in the argument. The second one has her saying that all the books contradict, which they do. Goldstein says that one has to have arrogant provincialism to believe that the documents held sacred by the clan one was born in are true and the others false.

            Apparently, it never occurs to her that one could, I don't know, look for evidence that one of the books is true and make a decision based on evidence. If one is convinced the book is true, it is not arrogance to accept it. It would be arrogance rather to not accept it.

            So when we return to miracles, Goldstein sees a similar problem. Miracles are used for any number of religions. How do we know any of them are true?

            Technically, Christianity is the one that is founded on a miracle, the resurrection of Jesus. Muhammad does no miracles in the Koran. Miracles would not fit in Hinduism or Buddhism. Miracles could be added in later traditions, but they are not foundational.

            Goldstein also says a miracle is a violation of the laws of nature. She does not tell where this comes from. Certainly, some people describe it this way, but not all.

            Finally, she of course appeals to Hume. Hume's argument has been critiqued several times over. One of the best critiques is by the agnostic Earman in his book Hume's Abject Failure. For my own purposes, Hume was arguing in a circle. How does he know that a miracle has never occurred? Hume mainly relied on his own elite companions who like him did not believe in miracles, but he has no basis to demonstrate that no miracle has ever occurred.

            The next argument is the argument from morality. Once again, as if on schedule, Goldstein trots out Euthyphro. Does God have a good reason for what He does? If He does, then we can use that same reasoning for ourselves. If He doesn't, then His choices are arbitrary. It never occurs to Goldstein to define goodness itself. After all, if she doesn't, she will have to live with the dilemma herself. Is something good because it benefits society, or does it benefit society because it is good? I have dealt with matters like this here.

            Naturally, there's also criticism of the God of the Old Testament. As expected, there is no interaction with the scholarly work in this field or looking at life in an ANE culture. No doubt, Goldstein would not want creationists who never study evolution critiquing that, but I guess she gets a free pass.

            These are the only ones I really want to look at. Most of the others are outside of my area of expertise or are just weak. It's a shame to see so many atheists praising a work like this. On the other hand, it also shows us that the atheists are not becoming informed on these matters and likely just believing something because it argues what they want to believe.

            In Christ,
            Nick Peters

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
              Time to wrap it up.

              The link can be found here.

              ----

              How do the arguments stand? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

              Okay. I kind of cheated. I saw that all the arguments are in the appendix and that's why I ordered the book from the library so I decided to skip the novel since I have many other books waiting to be read and get to the meat of the issue. How does Rebecca Goldstein handle the arguments?

              Goldstein lists 36 arguments. I have been in apologetics for nearly 20 years and some of these arguments I have never before seen used. Many are left out, such as the arguments of Thomas Aquinas and the argument from the resurrection of Jesus.

              Let's start with the first argument she deals with, the Cosmological Argument. The first premise she has listed in the argument is "Everything that exists must have a cause." When seeing that, it's hard to not think about Edward Feser's epic takedown of this kind of nonsense. Note Feser also includes "What caused God?" as a dumb objection.

              Feser rightly points out that no prominent defender of the Cosmological argument in history has ever said the argument is that everything has a cause. Maybe your local pastor who doesn't know the argument well might say that, but it is not said by serious philosophers. How did Goldstein make such a basic mistake?

              If this is the first objection also, we have to wonder how seriously one should take Goldstein on the others since this is a basic mistake. It leaves one considering that Goldstein has never read any serious work on the cosmological argument. If she has, that could be even worse because she badly misunderstood whatever it is she read.

              Many arguments from this point on are scientific and I have no wish to look at those as I am not a scientist, or they are arguments that I would never use and have not seen anyone else use. The next one I want to look at is the argument from miracles. However, to really look at that, I have to leapfrog ahead to another argument. That's the argument from holy books.

              Of course, it is a fallacious argument to assume that the book can only be the Word of God if God exists. but I am interested instead in dealing with the flaw in her look at flaws in the argument. The second one has her saying that all the books contradict, which they do. Goldstein says that one has to have arrogant provincialism to believe that the documents held sacred by the clan one was born in are true and the others false.

              Apparently, it never occurs to her that one could, I don't know, look for evidence that one of the books is true and make a decision based on evidence. If one is convinced the book is true, it is not arrogance to accept it. It would be arrogance rather to not accept it.

              So when we return to miracles, Goldstein sees a similar problem. Miracles are used for any number of religions. How do we know any of them are true?

              Technically, Christianity is the one that is founded on a miracle, the resurrection of Jesus. Muhammad does no miracles in the Koran. Miracles would not fit in Hinduism or Buddhism. Miracles could be added in later traditions, but they are not foundational.

              Goldstein also says a miracle is a violation of the laws of nature. She does not tell where this comes from. Certainly, some people describe it this way, but not all.

              Finally, she of course appeals to Hume. Hume's argument has been critiqued several times over. One of the best critiques is by the agnostic Earman in his book Hume's Abject Failure. For my own purposes, Hume was arguing in a circle. How does he know that a miracle has never occurred? Hume mainly relied on his own elite companions who like him did not believe in miracles, but he has no basis to demonstrate that no miracle has ever occurred.

              The next argument is the argument from morality. Once again, as if on schedule, Goldstein trots out Euthyphro. Does God have a good reason for what He does? If He does, then we can use that same reasoning for ourselves. If He doesn't, then His choices are arbitrary. It never occurs to Goldstein to define goodness itself. After all, if she doesn't, she will have to live with the dilemma herself. Is something good because it benefits society, or does it benefit society because it is good? I have dealt with matters like this here.

              Naturally, there's also criticism of the God of the Old Testament. As expected, there is no interaction with the scholarly work in this field or looking at life in an ANE culture. No doubt, Goldstein would not want creationists who never study evolution critiquing that, but I guess she gets a free pass.

              These are the only ones I really want to look at. Most of the others are outside of my area of expertise or are just weak. It's a shame to see so many atheists praising a work like this. On the other hand, it also shows us that the atheists are not becoming informed on these matters and likely just believing something because it argues what they want to believe.

              In Christ,
              Nick Peters
              This lady did debate craig and peterson. She tried euthrypo on craig and was immediately called on it.
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                This lady did debate craig and peterson. She tried euthrypo on craig and was immediately called on it.
                So she's using an argument she was called on?

                If so, that's just dishonest.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Craig and Peterson were on point in that debate. Goldstein honestly seemed pretty flustered.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                    Craig and Peterson were on point in that debate. Goldstein honestly seemed pretty flustered.
                    Got a linky?

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Got a linky?
                      Not sure how to link videos.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                        Not sure how to link videos.
                        See the little icon that looks like film up there next to the quote bubble icon when you open up a quick reply tab? You just copy the video URL into the space it gives you after clicking it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                          See the little icon that looks like film up there next to the quote bubble icon when you open up a quick reply tab? You just copy the video URL into the space it gives you after clicking it.
                          Thank you.
                          I will see if i can put up the video.
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Couldnt get the url but i got the thumbnail.hqdefault.jpg
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                              Couldnt get the url but i got the thumbnail.[ATTACH=CONFIG]28140[/ATTACH]

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment

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