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Fossilization

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  • Fossilization

    Though I was quite interested in the topic 20-30 years ago, I no longer pay much attention to detailed "origins" debates.

    However, on another site, a discussion veered into the topic. One poster is making much of the idea that fossilization requires rapid burial, if I'm understanding him correctly. IIRC, this "proves" a worldwide cataclysm, or else "ancient" fossils would be vanishingly rare.

    I assume Old-Earth / Non-Global Flood (or No Flood) people have addressed this idea. Is there a concise and digestible presentation anywhere? I'd like to consider both sides.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

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    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

  • #2
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    However, on another site, a discussion veered into the topic. One poster is making much of the idea that fossilization requires rapid burial, if I'm understanding him correctly. IIRC, this "proves" a worldwide cataclysm, or else "ancient" fossils would be vanishingly rare.
    1) Fossilisation doesn't require rapid burial. Many fossils, especially fossils of trees, show signs of multiple partial burial events over time.
    2) Even if fossilisation did require rapid burial, it doesn't necessarily require a flood. Sandstorms, landslides, and volcanic eruptions can also bury things, and the fossil record includes many examples of each of these burial types.
    3) Even if fossilisation did require rapid burial by a flood, it wouldn't require a worldwide cataclysm, just lots of independent and unsynchronised local floods, just like the floods we see happening today.
    4) Ancient fossils are vanishingly rare. Erosion of ancient continental rocks and sea-bed subduction have reduced the amount of fossil-bearing ancient rock compared to more recent rock, and ancient fossils are consequently less numerous than recent ones.
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    • #3
      It this thread about Mossy?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
        Though I was quite interested in the topic 20-30 years ago, I no longer pay much attention to detailed "origins" debates.

        However, on another site, a discussion veered into the topic. One poster is making much of the idea that fossilization requires rapid burial, if I'm understanding him correctly. IIRC, this "proves" a worldwide cataclysm, or else "ancient" fossils would be vanishingly rare.

        I assume Old-Earth / Non-Global Flood (or No Flood) people have addressed this idea. Is there a concise and digestible presentation anywhere? I'd like to consider both sides.
        Rapid burial occurs all the time in our contemporary world burying plants and animals. Rapid burial occurs in hurricanes, tidal changes, desert dune migration, floods of large river plains, and volcanic deposits. Fossils may and do occur all the time in the geologic column in the same conditions that exist today. Though rapid burial is not necessary. Flood plain and coastal plain deposits often contain bone and shell deposits reworked by floods, tides, and storm events just as happens in today's world.

        A lot of dinosaur bones, eggs and complete animals are commonly found in migrating sand dune deposits, and volcanic deposits like in Eastern and Northern China. Volcanic deposits have preserved some remarkable complete animal fossils,
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-11-2018, 05:42 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          Though I was quite interested in the topic 20-30 years ago, I no longer pay much attention to detailed "origins" debates.

          However, on another site, a discussion veered into the topic. One poster is making much of the idea that fossilization requires rapid burial, if I'm understanding him correctly. IIRC, this "proves" a worldwide cataclysm, or else "ancient" fossils would be vanishingly rare.

          I assume Old-Earth / Non-Global Flood (or No Flood) people have addressed this idea. Is there a concise and digestible presentation anywhere? I'd like to consider both sides.
          It does not require a rapid burial.

          For instance, a fish can wander into anoxic waters (whether in a lake or at sea) and suffocate because the water lacks oxygen and sink to the bottom. Since there is nearly no oxygen the remains won't be disturbed by either scavengers or bacteria and thus stay intact for quite a long time. The fact that such waters tend to be dead calm also means that the body won't be disturbed by currents and the like. All this means is that rapid burial is not necessary for it to be preserved. In fact, a partially buried whale skeleton slowly being covered by deposition has been studied off the coast of California in the Santa Catalina Basin at 1240 meters (4068') underwater demonstrates just how such fossilization can occur.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            1) Fossilisation doesn't require rapid burial. Many fossils, especially fossils of trees, show signs of multiple partial burial events over time.
            2) Even if fossilisation did require rapid burial, it doesn't necessarily require a flood. Sandstorms, landslides, and volcanic eruptions can also bury things, and the fossil record includes many examples of each of these burial types.
            3) Even if fossilisation did require rapid burial by a flood, it wouldn't require a worldwide cataclysm, just lots of independent and unsynchronised local floods, just like the floods we see happening today.
            4) Ancient fossils are vanishingly rare. Erosion of ancient continental rocks and sea-bed subduction have reduced the amount of fossil-bearing ancient rock compared to more recent rock, and ancient fossils are consequently less numerous than recent ones.
            We have a lot of fossils that formed that cannot be the result of a flood. Just sticking with those that include dinosaurs for the sake of brevity and simplicity we can start with those that are the result of a collapsing sand dune.

            The famous fossil of a Velociraptor locked in combat with a Protoceratops discovered in the southern Gobi Desert in 1971 is just such an example (although there is a small chance a sand storm was responsible -- either way a global flood was hardly responsible).




            And that's hardly the only Protoceratops that had been discovered that had been buried alive in aeolian (wind deposited) sediments and not drowned. Due to its orientation this guy was buried (again probably under a collapsing sand dune or something similar and not something that drowned) and was trying to dig its way out when it died.




            Aside from Protoceratops, several examples of another early certopsian dinosaur that lived in Asia, Psittacosaurus, has also been found that have either been buried in massive sandstorms or under collapsing sand dunes.

            And like the aforementioned Velociraptor and Protoceratops there is also yet another ceratopsian, this time the iconic Triceratops, that has been found in sandstone in Montana with a Nanotyrannus (a small tyrannosaurid relative of the T rex). In this case it appears that they killed each other and the corpses had been picked over by scavengers before being buried under sand. What exactly took place is still unknown since, at least the last time I heard, the discoverer is selling the fossils still encased in their plaster field jackets on the open market at Bonham’s auction house in New York without them being properly scientifically examined. The only thing known for certain was that they had been buried in dry sand.




            Another non-ceratopsian dinosaur, this time a relatively small sauropod known as Seitaad was found a couple years ago in Utah and had also been entombed by the collapse of a sand dune.

            And that is just dinosaur fossils resulting from collapsing sand dunes or sandstorms.

            Now let's turn to another major source for dinosaur fossils that have absolutely nothing to do with flooding. In fact in this cases it is the exact opposite -- the result of severe drought.

            How do advocates of a global flood explain why a substantial number of the bonebeds that have been uncovered are the result of drought -- local water sources drying up -- in layers that they identify as being laid down during a global deluge? I had a thread listing a couple dozen such sites that contained the remains of dinosaurs (there are others containing creatures that lived at times when they weren't around) including the world famous Cleveland-Lloyd Dinosaur Quarry (CLDQ)[1] but it was lost during the great crash of 2013

            Other sites include the Mother's Day Quarry, Canyon Bone Bed, Dino Ridge Quarry and Westside Quarry all in Montana, Ghost Ranch in New Mexico, Dry Mesa Dinosaur Quarry in western Colorado, Douglas Quarry in Dinosaur National Monument, a quarry just west of Arches National Park in southeast Utah, the Patagonia, Argentina site where the remains of Titanosaur were discovered and a couple in northern Madagascar. And here is a thread I started in 2014 describing a bonebed full of pterosaur remains in Brazil that was the result of either drought or possibly a sandstorm.

            Next, what about those creatures that have fallen into death traps ranging from sink holes to tar pits and died? We find numerous such examples all over the world. A half a dozen Utahraptors were found in what once was quicksand in eastern Utah just north of Arches National Park last year and several Arrhinoceratops were found at the bottom of what is likely an ancient sinkhole north of Drumheller in Alberta are just two examples. Another is the still active Adams Hill Tar Pit (a.k.a. Fort Sill Tar Pit) in southwestern Oklahoma that has been trapping creatures (and people) for roughly 250 million years now.

            Finally, some of the most famous sites, like many of those found in northeastern China (for instance, the Cretaceous Yixian and Jiufotang formations that comprise the Jehol Biota), are the result of creatures being buried in volcanic ash and debris much like the humans living in Pompeii and ‎Herculaneum were in 79 AD. Below are images of a Psittacosaurus and a Mei long (a duck-sized troodontid dinosaur), the latter is preserved curled up in a bird-like sleeping position, indicating that it was killed by poisonous volcanic gases before being buried




            If these took place during a flood they would have mixed with the water and not left distinctive layers that we see.

            And please note I was only referring to dinosaurs in these examples. I could give many, many more examples involving other creatures but hopefully these should suffice to illustrate my point.








            1. See here for an account (written a few years before the paper cited) in the popular media: Utah Dinos May Have Been Killed by Drought

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              It this thread about Mossy?
              A different kinda fossil


              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                A different kinda fossil

                If it were about Mossy it would a mossil
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Quick follow-up: What about the assertions that dinosaur DNA has been found, and that this necessitates that they were alive relatively "recently" (on the order of thousands or tens of thousands of years, as opposed to tens or hundreds of millions)?
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                    Quick follow-up: What about the assertions that dinosaur DNA has been found, and that this necessitates that they were alive relatively "recently" (on the order of thousands or tens of thousands of years, as opposed to tens or hundreds of millions)?
                    No, dinosaur DNA has not been found.

                    I still see you are looking for rabbit fossils in Pre-Cambrian rocks.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      No, dinosaur DNA has not been found.

                      I still see you are looking for rabbit fossils in Pre-Cambrian rocks.
                      Not sure what that was about, but ok, whatever.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        Quick follow-up: What about the assertions that dinosaur DNA has been found, and that this necessitates that they were alive relatively "recently" (on the order of thousands or tens of thousands of years, as opposed to tens or hundreds of millions)?
                        No DNA found. If someone is claiming otherwise they are deliberately misrepresenting things. At that point you should ask why do they find it necessary to rely on falsehoods to support their claim.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                          Not sure what that was about, but ok, whatever.
                          It is about failing to make the effort to understand science and the objective verifiable evidence as it is, and not citing assertions and false evidence to support a religious agenda.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            It is about failing to make the effort to understand science and the objective verifiable evidence as it is, and not citing assertions and false evidence to support a religious agenda.
                            I think his asking could be seen as an attempt to make the effort to understand science and the objective verifiable evidence as it is.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              I think his asking could be seen as an attempt to make the effort to understand science and the objective verifiable evidence as it is.
                              I do not see it! There are no citations nor references, and I do not see any comprehension of fairly basic science references in the history of his posts.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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