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  • #16
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It is about failing to make the effort to understand science and the objective verifiable evidence as it is, and not citing assertions and false evidence to support a religious agenda.
    I'm politely asking questions with NO agenda Edited by a Moderator
    Last edited by Zymologist; 06-15-2018, 09:05 AM.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
      I'm politely asking questions with NO agenda Edited by a Moderator
      Got any more?

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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      • #18
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
        I'm politely asking questions with NO agenda Edited by a Moderator
        Well, there is more to this than just asking questions. There is a history here of your posts that do reflect a Creationist agenda. Your questions claimed DNA found from dinosaurs, and issues of rapid burial of fossils without references or context in scientific sources, which are generally available on high school level articles and texts.

        For example: If you make an assertion concerning dinosaur DNA found simply provide a scientific reference concerning this.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-16-2018, 06:16 AM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          No DNA found. If someone is claiming otherwise they are deliberately misrepresenting things. At that point you should ask why do they find it necessary to rely on falsehoods to support their claim.
          Elaborating a bit about "soft tissues"

          First, I should note that Mary Schweitzer[1], the paleontologist at North Carolina State University who first discovered so-called "soft tissue," inside the femur of a T rex, did at one time say that they did find DNA on the fossil, BUT she was very careful to not say it was dinosaur DNA ("Whoever it belongs to is a mystery"). It is likely extraneous DNA derived from bacteria or even humans from handling the sample. It is incredibly easy to contaminate a sample even under the best of conditions[2] and considering that they were not originally thinking about looking for DNA they weren't taking precautions.

          Second, what often gets glossed over is that these soft tissies aren't exactly soft. They had to soak the material in an acidic solution over a period of several days in order to get it even slightly pliable.

          Third, it looks like Schweitzer and her colleagues have discovered a mechanism that may account for how the "soft tissue" was preserved for so long a period of time back in 2013.

          Source: A role for iron and oxygen chemistry in preserving soft tissues, cells and molecules from deep time


          Abstract

          The persistence of original soft tissues in Mesozoic fossil bone is not explained by current chemical degradation models. We identified iron particles (goethite-αFeO(OH)) associated with soft tissues recovered from two Mesozoic dinosaurs, using transmission electron microscopy, electron energy loss spectroscopy, micro-X-ray diffraction and Fe micro-X-ray absorption near-edge structure. Iron chelators increased fossil tissue immunoreactivity to multiple antibodies dramatically, suggesting a role for iron in both preserving and masking proteins in fossil tissues...



          Source

          © Copyright Original Source



          The entire paper is available at the link above.


          The take-away here is that iron nanoparticles associated with dinosaur blood vessels were identified (the researchers think that they originated from the blood and muscle cells during decay) and moreover were able to identify iron-facilitated reactions that contribute to preservation. IOW, iron may indeed play an important role in preserving ancient tissues within dinosaur fossils before it can decay.

          As Schweitzer explained:

          Iron is necessary for survival, but it's also highly reactive and destructive in living tissues, which is why our bodies have proteins that transport iron molecules to where they are needed but protect us from unwanted reactions at the same time. When we die, that protective mechanism breaks down and the iron is turned loose on our tissues -- and that destructive process can act in much the same way formaldehyde does to preserve the tissues and proteins.


          Because both birds and crocodiles -- the closest living relatives of the dinosaurs -- have large, nucleated red blood cells with more hemoglobin per cell than mammals, meaning that it is highly likely that dinosaur's red blood cells also contained much more hemoglobin, which would therefore act to amplify its preserving effect on tissue.

          Also, if the hemoglobin were contained in a bone in an arid sandy environment (as indicated by the type of sandstone it was encased in), keeping it dry and insulated from microbes, preservation becomes even more likely.

          Moreover, proposing a naturally occurring mechanism for the stabilization of soft tissues may very well have important connotations outside of paleontology. As researchers at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California have pointed out

          "If iron-mediated reactions are part of a continuum from those that facilitate life processes (e.g. cellular respiration, oxygen transport) to fully mineralized, it may be possible to propose a molecular pathway for reactions causing diseases in humans, and once such a pathway is identified, it may be possible to propose ways to interrupt this process."


          Finally, a couple years after this (2015) another possible way that it could have been preserved for such a long time was proposed

          Source: SEDIMENT PERMEABILITY AND THE PRESERVATION OF SOFT-TISSUES IN CONCRETIONS: AN EXPERIMENTAL STUDY


          Abstract

          Sediment permeability is hypothesized to affect soft tissue fossilization within concretions through its effects on organic decay and concretion growth. The role of permeability was tested in a series of experiments in which cod tissue was decayed in glass beads of varying permeabilities. Decay was measured using infrared gas analysis (IRGA), and mineral precipitation within the beads (a proxy for concretion growth) was measured using micro CT scanning. The interactions of the three variables—sediment permeability, decay, and mineralization—were assessed with MANOVA and with linear regressions of decay and precipitation per unit decay on permeability. These two linear regressions were combined into a more general, nonlinear expression of the relationship between permeability and total mineral precipitation. The results show that sediment permeability has two competing effects on precipitation, the strength of each varying dynamically depending on permeability. Low permeability environments inhibit decay, thus enhancing fossilization but inhibiting overall precipitation because a build-up of decay products is necessary to promote mineral formation (the “decay effect”). However, low permeability environments can also increase precipitation per unit decay by inhibiting the diffusion of decay products away from the carcass, allowing for a faster build-up of decay products (the “mineralization effect”). At low permeabilities, the decay effect dominates (decay controlled), and precipitation is positively correlated with permeability. At higher permeabilities, the mineralization effect dominates (permeability controlled), and precipitation is negatively correlated with permeability. The experiments show that fossilization within concretions is promoted by decay inhibition (at low permeabilities) and rapid concretion growth (at intermediate permeabilities). Thus, the effects of permeability on fossilization are complex, and influence the mechanism of fossilization.


          Source

          © Copyright Original Source



          I guess the point of all this is that scientists are constantly finding things that they didn't expect to find, but any scientist worth his salt is going to investigate it rather than throw everything they do know and retreat into some cave. The fossils were found embedded in sediments that have been repeatedly dated through several different means to the Mesozoic so it was reasonable to continue with that as a starting point rather than allowing wild speculations to take hold. Searching for a mechanism to explain preservation of these materials over much longer than expected period of time was the logical thing to do and appears to have been successful.












          1. In an interview of Schweitzer, who is an evangelical who describes herself as "a complete and total Christian," stated that she has begun to take it personally when evolution deniers misrepresent her work saying that, “They twist your words and they manipulate your data.” She would reiterate this roughly eight years later during an interview for BioLogos (a Christian advocacy group established by Francis Collins)

          One thing that does bother me, though, is that young earth creationists take my research and use it for their own message, and I think they are misleading people about it. Pastors and evangelists, who are in a position of leadership, are doubly responsible for checking facts and getting things right, but they have misquoted me and misrepresented the data. They’re looking at this research in terms of a false dichotomy [science versus faith] and that doesn’t do anybody any favors


          2. A couple years ago I read Phillip Manning's Grave Secrets of Dinosaurs: Soft Tissues and Hard Science which is largely about fossilized dinosaur mummies, especially "Dakota" an Edmontosaurus, which had a good bit of skin and muscle fossilize and which Manning helped to excavate. Manning mentions several times how easy it is to contaminate fossils with modern DNA even through things like the plaster that is used to wrap the rocks the fossils are found in for transportation.

          Prior to this I remember their was a great deal of interest in the discovery of some human DNA in some dried out wolf dung in a cave in the American Northwest that significantly pre-dated the Clovis culture. One of the concerns raised was whether the lab had adequately cleaned their testing equipment which could have contaminated the sample with modern human DNA.
          Last edited by rogue06; 06-26-2018, 03:45 PM.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Elaborating a bit about "soft tissues"

            First, I should note that Mary Schweitzer[1], the paleontologist at North Carolina State University who first discovered so-called "soft tissue," inside the femur of a T rex, did at one time say that they did find DNA on the fossil, BUT she was very careful to not say it was dinosaur DNA ("Whoever it belongs to is a mystery"). It is likely extraneous DNA derived from bacteria or even humans from handling the sample. It is incredibly easy to contaminate a sample even under the best of conditions[2] and considering that they were not originally thinking about looking for DNA they weren't taking precautions.

            Second, what often gets glossed over is that these soft tissies aren't exactly soft. They had to soak the material in an acidic solution over a period of several days in order to get it even slightly pliable.

            Third, it looks like Schweitzer and her colleagues have discovered a mechanism that may account for how the "soft tissue" was preserved for so long a period of time back in 2013.

            Source: A role for iron and oxygen chemistry in preserving soft tissues, cells and molecules from deep time


            Abstract

            The persistence of original soft tissues in Mesozoic fossil bone is not explained by current chemical degradation models. We identified iron particles (goethite-αFeO(OH)) associated with soft tissues recovered from two Mesozoic dinosaurs, using transmission electron microscopy, electron energy loss spectroscopy, micro-X-ray diffraction and Fe micro-X-ray absorption near-edge structure. Iron chelators increased fossil tissue immunoreactivity to multiple antibodies dramatically, suggesting a role for iron in both preserving and masking proteins in fossil tissues...



            Source

            © Copyright Original Source



            The entire paper is available at the link above.


            The take-away here is that iron nanoparticles associated with dinosaur blood vessels were identified (the researchers think that they originated from the blood and muscle cells during decay) and moreover were able to identify iron-facilitated reactions that contribute to preservation. IOW, iron may indeed play an important role in preserving ancient tissues within dinosaur fossils before it can decay.

            As Schweitzer explained:

            Iron is necessary for survival, but it's also highly reactive and destructive in living tissues, which is why our bodies have proteins that transport iron molecules to where they are needed but protect us from unwanted reactions at the same time. When we die, that protective mechanism breaks down and the iron is turned loose on our tissues -- and that destructive process can act in much the same way formaldehyde does to preserve the tissues and proteins.


            Because both birds and crocodiles -- the closest living relatives of the dinosaurs -- have large, nucleated red blood cells with more hemoglobin per cell than mammals, meaning that it is highly likely that dinosaur's red blood cells also contained much more hemoglobin, which would therefore act to amplify its preserving effect on tissue.

            Also, if the hemoglobin were contained in a bone in an arid sandy environment (as indicated by the type of sandstone it was encased in), keeping it dry and insulated from microbes, preservation becomes even more likely.

            Moreover, proposing a naturally occurring mechanism for the stabilization of soft tissues may very well have important connotations outside of paleontology. As researchers at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California have pointed out

            "If iron-mediated reactions are part of a continuum from those that facilitate life processes (e.g. cellular respiration, oxygen transport) to fully mineralized, it may be possible to propose a molecular pathway for reactions causing diseases in humans, and once such a pathway is identified, it may be possible to propose ways to interrupt this process."


            Finally, a couple years after this (2015) another possible way that it could have been preserved for such a long time was proposed

            Source: SEDIMENT PERMEABILITY AND THE PRESERVATION OF SOFT-TISSUES IN CONCRETIONS: AN EXPERIMENTAL STUDY


            Abstract

            Sediment permeability is hypothesized to affect soft tissue fossilization within concretions through its effects on organic decay and concretion growth. The role of permeability was tested in a series of experiments in which cod tissue was decayed in glass beads of varying permeabilities. Decay was measured using infrared gas analysis (IRGA), and mineral precipitation within the beads (a proxy for concretion growth) was measured using micro CT scanning. The interactions of the three variables—sediment permeability, decay, and mineralization—were assessed with MANOVA and with linear regressions of decay and precipitation per unit decay on permeability. These two linear regressions were combined into a more general, nonlinear expression of the relationship between permeability and total mineral precipitation. The results show that sediment permeability has two competing effects on precipitation, the strength of each varying dynamically depending on permeability. Low permeability environments inhibit decay, thus enhancing fossilization but inhibiting overall precipitation because a build-up of decay products is necessary to promote mineral formation (the “decay effect”). However, low permeability environments can also increase precipitation per unit decay by inhibiting the diffusion of decay products away from the carcass, allowing for a faster build-up of decay products (the “mineralization effect”). At low permeabilities, the decay effect dominates (decay controlled), and precipitation is positively correlated with permeability. At higher permeabilities, the mineralization effect dominates (permeability controlled), and precipitation is negatively correlated with permeability. The experiments show that fossilization within concretions is promoted by decay inhibition (at low permeabilities) and rapid concretion growth (at intermediate permeabilities). Thus, the effects of permeability on fossilization are complex, and influence the mechanism of fossilization.


            Source

            © Copyright Original Source



            I guess the point of all this is that scientists are constantly finding things that they didn't expect to find, but any scientist worth his salt is going to investigate it rather than throw everything they do know and retreat into some cave. The fossils were found embedded in sediments that have been repeatedly dated through several different means to the Mesozoic so it was reasonable to continue with that as a starting point rather than allowing wild speculations to take hold. Searching for a mechanism to explain preservation of these materials over much longer than expected period of time was the logical thing to do and appears to have been successful.












            1. In an interview of Schweitzer, who is an evangelical who describes herself as "a complete and total Christian," stated that she has begun to take it personally when evolution deniers misrepresent her work saying that, “They twist your words and they manipulate your data.” She would reiterate this roughly eight years later during an interview for BioLogos (a Christian advocacy group established by Francis Collins)

            One thing that does bother me, though, is that young earth creationists take my research and use it for their own message, and I think they are misleading people about it. Pastors and evangelists, who are in a position of leadership, are doubly responsible for checking facts and getting things right, but they have misquoted me and misrepresented the data. They’re looking at this research in terms of a false dichotomy [science versus faith] and that doesn’t do anybody any favors


            2. A couple years ago I read Phillip Manning's Grave Secrets of Dinosaurs: Soft Tissues and Hard Science which is largely about fossilized dinosaur mummies, especially "Dakota" an Edmontosaurus, which had a good bit of skin and muscle fossilize and which Manning helped to excavate. Manning mentions several times how easy it is to contaminate fossils with modern DNA even through things like the plaster that is used to wrap the rocks the fossils are found in for transportation.

            Prior to this I remember their was a great deal of interest in the discovery of some human DNA in some dried out wolf dung in a cave in the American Northwest that significantly pre-dated the Clovis culture. One of the concerns raised was whether the lab had adequately cleaned their testing equipment which could have contaminated the sample with modern human DNA.
            One note of clarification is that the initial finding of DNA in the T Rex femur was not identified as dinosaur DNA, because of uncontroled conditions, and all the research since on similar fossilized material has not identified any dinosaur DNA.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment

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