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  • #76
    Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
    The all-time world record for a woman in the 100 meter dash (10.49 seconds) is longer than the men's minimum requirement for that event to compete in the Olympics (10.18 seconds).

    Or, how about a longer event? The time requirement to compete in the men's one mile run in the Olympics is 3 minutes 54 seconds. The all-time world record for a woman in that event? 4 minutes 12 seconds.
    You could do the same in most any sport...look up weightlifting records, for example.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

    Comment


    • #77
      It dawns on me that there is actually a fairly simple solution to all of this. Get away from distinguishing between "men's sports" and "women's sports" and make it a genetic screening issue. We could have the "X Games" and the "XX games." The former are open to anyone with an X chromosome (which is everyone); the latter only open to those with XX chromosomes (which is typically associated with women).

      This allows anyone to gender identify as they see fit, but also recognizes that XY provides a testosterone boost, which can be a strength differentiator. It also makes it possible for those women who want to compete with men to do so, while protecting those women who would rather not from having to.

      Simple...? Win-win?
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Once again carp either ignores or hand waves off the cold hard facts such as those presented by Terraceth

        And lpot's mention that the military fitness charts have different score charts for men and women to which I'll add

        Source: We Thought Female Athletes Were Catching Up to Men, but They're Not



        Earlier this week, we set out to test our perception that women were catching up to men. We know, after all, that there are and were structural factors that prevented women from engaging in and training for athletics. Our perception was that these impediments had been getting slowly eroded. Therefore, we expected to see, at least in some sports, a path to equality that showed women's times catching up with men's in 2031 or some other date in the future.

        But when we went to the data, our hypothesis didn't hold up. In a set of swimming and running races, each women's world record was about 90 percent of the men's world record.

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]28302[/ATTACH]

        It turned out someone had already conducted similar -- and broader -- research on this ratio. The Israeli physicist Ira Hammerman spoke at the 2010 Wingate Congress of Exercise & Sports Sciences, and he found that this little-known ratio held across all sports.

        Running. Swimming. Rowing. Kayaking. Short distance, long distance. Accomplished in teams or attempted alone.These are such diverse events, requiring different parts of the body and diverse types of talent. And yet they all share something: Their women's speed world records are all about 90 percent of their men's speed world records, in both short, middle and long distances.

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]28303[/ATTACH]

        In kayak racing -- played solo or in teams of 2 or 4; at distances of 200m, 500m or 1000m -- the mean ratio between women's and men's records was .88. In track cycling, at short or endurance distances, women's records were 88 percent of men's.

        Even in crew rowing -- a sport for 1, 2, 4 or 9 people, with two different forms of rowing and two different average weights -- the mean ratio from men's over women's world records was .90.

        Hammerman looked at a total of 82 events in all, across six sports, and the difference between all of their records fell between .84 and .94:

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]28304[/ATTACH]




        [*All emphases in the original*]

        Source

        © Copyright Original Source



        The article continues speculating that perhaps given enough time and if more women start participating that this gap might magically disappear but then notes that "this rough ratio has held for 55 years"

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]28305[/ATTACH]
        "Don't be confused by the x-axis: it's counting years, though
        they may look like ratios. That 1/55 means January 1955"

        It also notes that women have caught up with some records -- like tying Mark Spitz's record for the butterfly (swimming) -- but of course that was 50 years ago and I should note has been repeatedly shattered since then. Today, his time might not even qualify someone to make the finals.




        But continue ignoring all of this. Perhaps its just another of your "right-wing memes" Instead concentrate on getting your knickers in a bunch over someone saying "stupid" and "simple."
        Again - correlation without causation. We do know that there is a hormone difference between men and women, and a general size difference. We simply don't know if the 90% number is because of this, or because women have been historically told they cannot successfully compete with men, or some combination of the two. We won't know that until we actually create mechanisms for women to compete with and against men in a variety of venues, and stop telling them, "you're not up to it."
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          FIFY n/c

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Again - correlation without causation. We do know that there is a hormone difference between men and women, and a general size difference. We simply don't know if the 90% number is because of this, or because women have been historically told they cannot successfully compete with men, or some combination of the two. We won't know that until we actually create mechanisms for women to compete with and against men in a variety of venues, and stop telling them, "you're not up to it."
            I’m in the military and do physical training with the men. I can’t run as fast, can’t do as many sit ups, can’t do as many push ups, etc despite 4-5 days per week of physical training. Can I do more than someone that doesn’t do any PT? Sure, but I sure can’t do a 6 minute mile and wasn’t ever able to even 10 years ago, but I know men in my age group that can and do. It has nothing to do with what you claim, it has to do with basic biological difference in muscle density and structure. No matter how much you wish it was so, there’s biological difference between men and women that do give men, and by extension trans women unfair advantages that can’t be overcome.
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Right, and like bowling or race car driving.
              Actually, race car driving is extremely physically demanding. Think of the stress on the human body and exertion required to keep you in your seat as you enter a high-speed turn. There's a reason Danica Patrick is better known for her swimsuit photos than for her performance on the track.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                There's a reason Danica Patrick is better known for her swimsuit photos than for her performance on the track.
                Well that is OK too...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #83
                  So here's the solution: get rid of sports by gender division and just let everybody compete together.

                  Of course it would almost entirely eliminate women from any kind of sporting competition, but at least nobody could ever complain about being giving special treatment.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    It dawns on me that there is actually a fairly simple solution to all of this. Get away from distinguishing between "men's sports" and "women's sports" and make it a genetic screening issue. We could have the "X Games" and the "XX games." The former are open to anyone with an X chromosome (which is everyone); the latter only open to those with XX chromosomes (which is typically associated with women).

                    This allows anyone to gender identify as they see fit, but also recognizes that XY provides a testosterone boost, which can be a strength differentiator. It also makes it possible for those women who want to compete with men to do so, while protecting those women who would rather not from having to.

                    Simple...? Win-win?
                    How about this biological boys compete against biological boys, biological girls compete against biological girls. Simple - without all the extra hoops you are suggesting. Why does everyone have to be held hostage by a mere handful of mentally messed up kids?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      How about this biological boys compete against biological boys, biological girls compete against biological girls. Simple - without all the extra hoops you are suggesting. Why does everyone have to be held hostage by a mere handful of mentally messed up kids?
                      Because anything and everything must be sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Because anything and everything must be sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.
                        Yep, no matter how inane...
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Tyranny of the minority.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Tyranny of the minority.
                            I got an idea - let all the transgenders compete in the Special Olympics! That will solve the problem...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Or perhaps we simply teach young girls, as you apparently do, that they simply can't compete with men and that's the level to which they aspire?
                              It doesn't matter if you "teach" them that or not, because it's true (at least in the realm of most physical sports). If you keep them segregated as we do now, it teaches them that because they're kept segregated. If you don't segregate them, then the women are all going to be pushed out and they won't be able to compete. Again: World records for track events by women are not fast enough to meet the requirements men have for the events such as the Olympics.

                              The ability of a woman to win against a man is not in dispute. I expect that in any sport, a good female player would defeat me simply because I'm not any good at sports. However, the issue is when people of similar ability are put against each other, rather than a case where the woman has a clear advantage due to the man not being anywhere near as good. For example, the first example on your first link is Jackie Tonawanda vs. Larry Rodania. The former is an excellent female boxer, the latter is a complete nobody who is only remembered today because of the fact he lost to the former. Further, a number of the sports are cases where the biological differences between males and females play a much smaller role, such as horseracing and racecar driving, sports in which men's naturally stronger muscles are not particularly relevant.

                              Also, your third link actually does some to disprove your point. It argues that in the rather specific sport of open water swimming, men and women are on equal footing (though it does list some objections to that hypothesis), but declares that to make it "unique among the world's various athletic competitions" as in conceding that's not the case for other sports.

                              I would also be remiss to not point out something absolutely laugh out loud: In your first link, when listing times women beat men, it cites Chyna as defeating Jeff Jarrett. Here is the problem: That win occurred in professional wrestling, which is scripted and not an actual competition. One might as well point to some point in the comics that Wonder Woman defeated Superman as an example of how women can be as good as men in athletics.

                              And an entire book devoted to the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Boys-.../dp/0195386779 (I just ordered a copy, so thanks for pushing me to this search).
                              So what if an "entire book" is devoted to the subject? One can easily find "entire books" devoted to arguing that the world is flat.
                              Last edited by Terraceth; 06-15-2018, 06:33 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                I’m in the military and do physical training with the men. I can’t run as fast, can’t do as many sit ups, can’t do as many push ups, etc despite 4-5 days per week of physical training. Can I do more than someone that doesn’t do any PT? Sure, but I sure can’t do a 6 minute mile and wasn’t ever able to even 10 years ago, but I know men in my age group that can and do. It has nothing to do with what you claim, it has to do with basic biological difference in muscle density and structure. No matter how much you wish it was so, there’s biological difference between men and women that do give men, and by extension trans women unfair advantages that can’t be overcome.
                                An example is not an argument, Pix. And I actually accept that their are biological differences between men and women. I do not accept that we know those biological differences justify separating men and women sports in whole or in part. There is a cultural bias at work here as well, and we do not have enough data to tell us what amount each (cultural bias, biological differences) contributes to the current state of affairs.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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