More Unfairness From the Insane Left...

[lilpixieofterror]

How on earth could you possibly substantiate that claim?

I already did by pointing out things you keep ignoring:

All the military branches have different charts to score men and women against with women scores being less.
Current sport records favor men much more vs women.
Olympic records have men getting better scores vs women.
Current biological reality says women have, on average, 33% upper body strength and 40% less lower body strength vs men.
Doctors, physical trainers, and athletes will tell you the same thing.

Face it, youÂ’re wrong. Allowing trans women to compete against born women will push born women out of women sports and no amount of hoping reality isnÂ’t true will change that fact.

And none of them will provide the information I'm asking for because, AFAICT, it has never been studied. If it has not been studied, we have no way of knowing what percentage of the infamous 10% gap is due to physical/biological differences, and what percent is due to social indoctrination.

Yes because actual statical facts of the fastest women being nearly a minute slower on a one mile run along with decades of experience and biological reality will not deter you from how wrong you are. Women do not have the strength to compete with men and will lose against a man with equal physical fitness levels. Deny that all you want, reality wonÂ’t change because you want it to, but what do I know? IÂ’ve just been a cross country runner for 15 years now and have taken part in several runs during that time. IÂ’ve yet to see a women beat all the men out. ThereÂ’s a good reason thereÂ’s age groups and different gender categories in every group.

As I have now noted multiple times - I do not question that there are clear biological differences. Indeed, I delight in some of them! However, we also live in societies where women (on average) still play second fiddle to men in multiple respects, are regularly told they are inferior to men, and are told they have their "proper role" to play. The form of indoctrination from childhood must have some degree of effect. How much? No one knows. Maybe the highest women achievers (in sports) are not the exception because of their biology, maybe they are the exception because they were raised in a context where that message was not regularly delivered by their family or community - or maybe they had the mental fortitude to shut it out.

Like I said carp, IÂ’ve been doing cross country running for about 15 years. IÂ’ve taken part and volunteered in well over 2 dozen events in that time. I have yet to see a women beat all the men out. ThatÂ’s why thereÂ’s men and women categories at sporting events. Deny all you want, but that doesnÂ’t change reality.

The point is, we simply don't know.

Yeah we do.

[Tassman]

That whooshing sound you hear is the point going over your head.

The real purpose of this thread is to point out the inherent unequality that is created when biological men are allowed to call themselves women and then dominate in women's sports. I'm a bit surprised that more liberals aren't outraged by this appropriation of female culture, but I suppose I shouldnn't be. Logic and consistency has never been the strong suite of liberalism. White people selling burritos? How dare you, sir! Men competing in women's sports and destroying the competition? That's simply what "equality" looks like.

Transgender women have Estrogen therapy, which is the primary female sex hormone. It is responsible for the development and regulation of female characteristics including breasts, voice timbre and secondary sex characteristics including reduced physical strength vis-à-vis men. So save your "liberals are so unfair" whining for something of substance.

[carpedm9587]

I already did by pointing out things you keep ignoring:

All the military branches have different charts to score men and women against with women scores being less.
Current sport records favor men much more vs women.
Olympic records have men getting better scores vs women.
Current biological reality says women have, on average, 33% upper body strength and 40% less lower body strength vs men.
Doctors, physical trainers, and athletes will tell you the same thing.

Pix - you're missing the point. We know there are biological differences. That is well documented. What we don't know is to what extent the cultural influence is magnifying those differences. THAT was what I was asking how you could possibly substantiate - you claimed it had ZERO to so with cultural influences, but then you only provide data about the biological side. So where is the data that the cultural side has been shown not to exist?

Face it, youÂ’re wrong. Allowing trans women to compete against born women will push born women out of women sports and no amount of hoping reality isnÂ’t true will change that fact.

Did you even read my suggestion?

Yes because actual statical facts of the fastest women being nearly a minute slower on a one mile run along with decades of experience and biological reality will not deter you from how wrong you are. Women do not have the strength to compete with men and will lose against a man with equal physical fitness levels. Deny that all you want, reality wonÂ’t change because you want it to, but what do I know? IÂ’ve just been a cross country runner for 15 years now and have taken part in several runs during that time. IÂ’ve yet to see a women beat all the men out. ThereÂ’s a good reason thereÂ’s age groups and different gender categories in every group.

Like I said carp, IÂ’ve been doing cross country running for about 15 years. IÂ’ve taken part and volunteered in well over 2 dozen events in that time. I have yet to see a women beat all the men out. ThatÂ’s why thereÂ’s men and women categories at sporting events. Deny all you want, but that doesnÂ’t change reality.

Yeah we do.

So your assertion is duly noted. Since you have not provided any data to support it, and I don't believe that data exists, my claim remains: we do not know the degree to which women's achievements are being culturally limited in sports and other areas of athleticism. An easy approach to a beginning of a solution is the one I proposed: "X games" and "XX games."

[demi-conservative]

And in my state! This is so unfair and wrong!

No, it is good thing. Time for men to go in, show them what real athleticism is!!

Why have separated events anyway, that is segregation, sexist!

[demi-conservative]

Wow. You think that it's possible that if we had a truly equal opportunity society in every way, the biologically-based physiological differences between the two sexes might completely disappear?

Wow. I can't even...

Why do you think we are having age of 4th wave feminism, of 'you go grrrrrl, • Edited by a Moderator •???

Cos there are people like carped.

[Mountain Man]

Transgender women have Estrogen therapy, which is the primary female sex hormone. It is responsible for the development and regulation of female characteristics including breasts, voice timbre and secondary sex characteristics including reduced physical strength vis-à-vis men. So save your "liberals are so unfair" whining for something of substance.

*whoosh*

A man going through estrogen therapy is still a man. It might reduce but will not eliminate the inherent physical advantages in strength and speed that he has over women. Seriously, aren't you guys always crying about "male privilege"? Why is this OK in your world? I have yet to hear a coherent defense of this from any of the liberals posting here.

[lilpixieofterror]

Pix - you're missing the point. We know there are biological differences. That is well documented. What we don't know is to what extent the cultural influence is magnifying those differences. THAT was what I was asking how you could possibly substantiate - you claimed it had ZERO to so with cultural influences, but then you only provide data about the biological side. So where is the data that the cultural side has been shown not to exist?

I got the point just fine. The problem is social difference are not going to be enough to deal with the real biological differences and no amount of social difference can make up for those major biological factors. Even a 10% handicap wouldn’t be enough.

Did you even read my suggestion?

Does it include not having trans women compete?

So your assertion is duly noted. Since you have not provided any data to support it, and I don't believe that data exists, my claim remains: we do not know the degree to which women's achievements are being culturally limited in sports and other areas of athleticism. An easy approach to a beginning of a solution is the one I proposed: "X games" and "XX games."

It’s always amusing how you pretend your arguments are a fortress and everyone else has to meet burdens you yourself don’t have to. Anyway, all you present is speculation and assertions and it ends up being my job to disprove your speculation. Sorry carp, while I’m not a professional athlete, I still am fairly good at cross country running. I doubt most men in America can keep a 4.15 per half mile pace going for an entire 5k run. I’m no where near the record holder in men or women’s run time, but many of my male fellow runners can do a 3.00 per half mile pace for about 18 minutes for a 5k run. Sorry, but no amount of social pressure can make up the difference, there’s a minute and a half run time difference between the 5k world record holders.

[Mountain Man]

This idea that women can't physically compete with men because of social factors is obvious BS.

But I really don't care; let men compete in women's sports. It's no skin off my back. I'm just amused by the hypocrisy of liberals who style themselves as the champion of women, who preach against "male privilege", and yet have opened a pathway for men to effectively push women out of their own sports.

[demi-conservative]

But I really don't care; let men compete in women's sports. It's no skin off my back.

On one hand, progs have success again, another steamroll through. On other, they are not smart this time, getting pushback even from libs. They should keep going!

[carpedm9587]

I got the point just fine. The problem is social difference are not going to be enough to deal with the real biological differences and no amount of social difference can make up for those major biological factors. Even a 10% handicap wouldn’t be enough.

I said nothing about making up for biological differences, so I have no response.

Does it include not having trans women compete?

My apologies. I assumed you understood genetics related to male/female or were making the connection. Sex is determined by what are known as the X and Y chromosomes. A male codes XY and a female codes XX. It's why the general rule of thumb is that dad determines the gender of the offspring, because mom can only provide an X chromosome. Only the male carries the Y. So "X games" would be open to anyone carrying an X chromosome (which is everyone). "XX games" would only be open to those carrying two X chromosomes. That eliminates anyone born genetically "male." The trans process, even after surgery, does not change this genetic coding.

Note that this does not completely solve the problem. Trans women (men who gender identify as women) would not be able to complete with women born as women, but trans men (women who gender identify as men) would be able to compete. As was noted by someone, it is widely believed that testosterone is a significant factor in male strength. Trans men would presumably have some of that testosterone-induced advantage. Not exactly sure how that plays out.

It’s always amusing how you pretend your arguments are a fortress and everyone else has to meet burdens you yourself don’t have to. Anyway, all you present is speculation and assertions and it ends up being my job to disprove your speculation. Sorry carp, while I’m not a professional athlete, I still am fairly good at cross country running. I doubt most men in America can keep a 4.15 per half mile pace going for an entire 5k run. I’m no where near the record holder in men or women’s run time, but many of my male fellow runners can do a 3.00 per half mile pace for about 18 minutes for a 5k run. Sorry, but no amount of social pressure can make up the difference, there’s a minute and a half run time difference between the 5k world record holders.

Actually - my point was exactly that there IS no data to factor out cultural influences - which is why my position is "we don't know." You're the one asserting "zero influence." If you're going to make the claim, and you want it accepted, you need to provide some evidence for your claim. The evidence for my claim is the absence of data. To show I am wrong, all you need to do is show the data eliminating cultural influence as a contributor to the phenomenon.

[Sparko]

Why aren't the liberals complaining about gender appropriation?

They whine when a white girl wears a Kimono. They complain when a white woman claims to be black. Why aren't they complaining about a white man trying to take over a woman's gender and sport?

[rogue06]

Why aren't the liberals complaining about gender appropriation?

They whine when a white girl wears a Kimono. They complain when a white woman claims to be black. Why aren't they complaining about a white man trying to take over a woman's gender and sport?

Because with the left while all rights are equal, some are more equal than others.


Right now in their hierarchy gay/transgender rights trump any and all others.

[carpedm9587]

Why aren't the liberals complaining about gender appropriation?

They whine when a white girl wears a Kimono. They complain when a white woman claims to be black. Why aren't they complaining about a white man trying to take over a woman's gender and sport?

Dunno...

[carpedm9587]

Because with the left while all rights are equal, some are more equal than others.

Right now in their hierarchy gay/transgender rights trump any and all others.

No.

[lilpixieofterror]

I said nothing about making up for biological differences, so I have no response.

Of course you don’t because you’d rather talk about the flea than the elephant standing in the room. Whatever sociological or psychological factors that are at play would be tiny compared to the large differences in strength and endurance between the sexes.

My apologies. I assumed you understood genetics related to male/female or were making the connection. Sex is determined by what are known as the X and Y chromosomes. A male codes XY and a female codes XX. It's why the general rule of thumb is that dad determines the gender of the offspring, because mom can only provide an X chromosome. Only the male carries the Y. So "X games" would be open to anyone carrying an X chromosome (which is everyone). "XX games" would only be open to those carrying two X chromosomes. That eliminates anyone born genetically "male." The trans process, even after surgery, does not change this genetic coding.

So you agree with us. Thanks for agreeing and the condensing lecture at the same time.

Note that this does not completely solve the problem. Trans women (men who gender identify as women) would not be able to complete with women born as women, but trans men (women who gender identify as men) would be able to compete. As was noted by someone, it is widely believed that testosterone is a significant factor in male strength. Trans men would presumably have some of that testosterone-induced advantage. Not exactly sure how that plays out.

As I recall, it’s the introduction of the sex hormones on the onset of puberty that starts to trigger the major differences between the sexes. Before, the differences are far less pronounced. Issue is trans men have already gone through puberty ad a male and already gained those strength advantages.

Actually - my point was exactly that there IS no data to factor out cultural influences - which is why my position is "we don't know." You're the one asserting "zero influence." If you're going to make the claim, and you want it accepted, you need to provide some evidence for your claim. The evidence for my claim is the absence of data. To show I am wrong, all you need to do is show the data eliminating cultural influence as a contributor to the phenomenon.

Sorry Carp, but lack of evidence isn’t an argument and you have provided zero evidence that social factors have anything to do with this. Stop shifting your burden of proof to me, you made the positive claim, you prove it. Not my job to prove a negative.