More Unfairness From the Insane Left...

[KingsGambit]

I think you're misunderstanding my point. There are certain factors that give someone an advantage (on average, at least) in sports. For some of those things, such as height, divisions are not done. For some of them, like age, sex, and (for certain sports) weight, people are divided up.

Someone is free to argue that some of the factors that cause dividing shouldn't cause it, or ones that don't cause dividing should cause dividing. However, if someone is going to claim that transgenders get to compete against the opposite sex (or at least the male-to-female ones) rather than their own on the basis of "well, some people just have inherent advantages!" then you need to put gender into the category of "you don't divide people up over this" in order to be consistent and no longer have sports segregated by gender. I haven't seen anyone do that.

Dividing by age and sex seems a lot less arbitrary than dividing by other factors, I'd guess.

[Cow Poke]

Dividing by age and sex seems a lot less arbitrary than dividing by other factors, I'd guess.

We "grade" adult Sunday School classes by age, and one of our ladies complained about that cause she didn't want to tell her age.

Our Sunday School director said, "well, we have another option - we grade by weight, with a bathroom scale in the hallway, and the 200lb and over class would be....

she slugged him.

[LeaC]

I think the deciding factor should be hormone replacement therapy. It changes one's body to the point that any competitive advantage should be eliminated. However, the stigma against trans people and the possible expense or denial of HRT can put a trans person into a state of limbo, so it's reasonable for people to be upset if a transwoman who can't get HRT but understandably doesn't want to compete with men is banned from competing. Once trans people are more accepted and there are no unnecessary barriers to HRT, I think most people would be happy with that qualification.

This is not true. HRT doesn't change factors like greater lung capacity, grip strength, bone density, and there's no clear studies that indicates it changes muscle growth/capacity either. Men and women are not interchangeable, and you can't simply inject hormones to turn one into another or eliminate all competitive advantages. Also, HRT has long-lasting and often negative effects on health- male and female bodies are designed to handle normal amounts of male and female hormones, not those of the opposite sex. Because again, we aren't interchangeable. So it isn't fair to make HRT a requirement anyway.

TERF is a slur, they call themselves radical feminists, and exclude "transwomen"(male people) from consideration in feminism, not "transmen"(female people). So the "trans-exclusionary" part is misleading and divisive. They also oppose porn and prostitution under the same pro-woman reasoning.

[Cow Poke]

This is not true. HRT doesn't change factors like greater lung capacity, grip strength, bone density, and there's no clear studies that indicates it changes muscle growth/capacity either. Men and women are not interchangeable, and you can't simply inject hormones to turn one into another or eliminate all competitive advantages. Also, HRT has long-lasting and often negative effects on health- male and female bodies are designed to handle normal amounts of male and female hormones, not those of the opposite sex. Because again, we aren't interchangeable. So it isn't fair to make HRT a requirement anyway.

That!

[Sparko]

It replaces the hormones associated with their birth sex with those of their identified sex.

It doesn't matter what age someone is, HRT will alter their muscles to becomes like those of the sex they are transitioning into. It is true that bones will not change if HRT is done during adulthood, but isn't the most significant difference as far as sports are concerned muscles?

Muscles don't just waste away once you have them if you keep them exercised, PM. And the larger frame is also an advantage. Longer reach, longer stride. More weight to push around.

[Psychic Missile]

This is not true. HRT doesn't change factors like greater lung capacity, grip strength, bone density, and there's no clear studies that indicates it changes muscle growth/capacity either. Men and women are not interchangeable, and you can't simply inject hormones to turn one into another or eliminate all competitive advantages. Also, HRT has long-lasting and often negative effects on health- male and female bodies are designed to handle normal amounts of male and female hormones, not those of the opposite sex. Because again, we aren't interchangeable. So it isn't fair to make HRT a requirement anyway.

TERF is a slur, they call themselves radical feminists, and exclude "transwomen"(male people) from consideration in feminism, not "transmen"(female people). So the "trans-exclusionary" part is misleading and divisive. They also oppose porn and prostitution under the same pro-woman reasoning.

Lung capacity can be increased through practice and there are other variables that affect lung capacity than sex, and even among sexes the different is slight, so I don't think that's a problem. Grip strength is based on muscles, so that will change with HRT. Bone density can protect against injuries, but I don't think it gives a noticeable competitive advantage, and even if it did, anti-androgens result in lower bone density. Testosterone drives muscle growth, this is common knowledge. What are the long-lasting negative effects of HRT that won't be controlled by a doctor monitoring administration?

The idea that TERF is a slur is anti-intersectional feminism. It's ridiculous to compare a "derisive" name for an anti-science stance that affects people's health, in the vein of being anti-vaccine, with real slurs that women, lesbians, and people of color have dealt with for centuries.

[Cow Poke]

Lung capacity can be increased through practice and there are other variables that affect lung capacity than sex, and even among sexes the different is slight, so I don't think that's a problem. Grip strength is based on muscles, so that will change with HRT. Bone density can protect against injuries, but I don't think it gives a noticeable competitive advantage, and even if it did, anti-androgens result in lower bone density. Testosterone drives muscle growth, this is common knowledge. What are the long-lasting negative effects of HRT that won't be controlled by a doctor monitoring administration?

So, ya get a guy, and pump him full of drugs, chemicals and hormones, and let him compete against the girls. Sounds fair to me!

[rogue06]

So, ya get a guy, and pump him full of drugs, chemicals and hormones, and let him compete against the girls. Sounds fair to me!

Why should he bother? All he has to do is say he self-identifies as female.

[Psychic Missile]

Muscles don't just waste away once you have them if you keep them exercised, PM. And the larger frame is also an advantage. Longer reach, longer stride. More weight to push around.

Testosterone helps you build and maintain muscles. Because of that, a lower amount of testosterone equals a lower muscle mass, and at a higher than average amount, men can build muscle without even exercising. Young men have an average of ~625 nanograms per deciliter of testosterone while young women have an average of only ~42 ng/dl. As you would expect, transwomen undergoing HRT commonly report a loss of strength and muscle mass.

[Psychic Missile]

So, ya get a guy, and pump him full of drugs, chemicals and hormones, and let him compete against the girls. Sounds fair to me!

To her athletic detriment, so yes, it would be fair, and I invite you to point to a part of the HRT MtF process that would make a transwoman more competitive.

[Cow Poke]

To her athletic detriment, so yes, it would be fair, and I invite you to point to a part of the HRT MtF process that would make a transwoman more competitive.

He's still a guy. In a girl's competition.

[Sparko]

Testosterone helps you build and maintain muscles. Because of that, a lower amount of testosterone equals a lower muscle mass, and at a higher than average amount, men can build muscle without even exercising. Young men have an average of ~625 nanograms per deciliter of testosterone while young women have an average of only ~42 ng/dl. As you would expect, transwomen undergoing HRT commonly report a loss of strength and muscle mass.

You can keep saying that all you want. All I have to do is show you some photos:

[Psychic Missile]

He's still a guy. In a girl's competition.

That's what you have to fall back on when you don't have any evidence?

[Cow Poke]

That's what you have to fall back on when you don't have any evidence?

Evidence of what? That a guy who has surgery and hormones to pretend to be a female isn't still a guy, and shouldn't be allowed to compete as a girl?

[Psychic Missile]

You can keep saying that all you want. All I have to do is show you some photos:

I don't see a difference between these women and athletes like Katie Smith, Chantae McMillan, or Amanda Bingson. Nataliya Kuznetsova is more muscular than anyone you or I mentioned. Her secret: steroid and estrogen blockers.