More Unfairness From the Insane Left...

[Sparko]

“The use of estrogen supplements and testosterone blockers (or physical castration via sex reassignment) cause a decrease in muscle mass, bone density, and oxygen-carrying red blood cells. This leads to a decrease in strength, speed, and endurance”.

Joanna Harper (April 1, 2015). "Do transgender athletes have an edge? I sure don't". The Washington Post.



I really couldn't care less about transgenders in sport. But let's not fool ourselves this is not about sport, it's about the anti LGBT agenda of you angry Evangelicals.

A transsexual might be weaker as a woman than he was as a man, but he would still be stronger than a natural woman.

[carpedm9587]

A transsexual might be weaker as a woman than he was as a man, but he would still be stronger than a natural woman.

And your factual basis for this positive claim is...?

[Mountain Man]

“The use of estrogen supplements and testosterone blockers (or physical castration via sex reassignment) cause a decrease in muscle mass, bone density, and oxygen-carrying red blood cells. This leads to a decrease in strength, speed, and endurance”.

Weaker relative to the average man, perhaps, but transgender athletes are still biological men competing against biological women.

But I'm not sure why we're even talking about estrogen supplements and the like. Aren't liberals always saying that one's gender is whatever one decides it is regardless of biological reality? Telling a transgender that he can't compete as a woman because he hasn't subjected himself to self-mutilating medical procedures is exactly the kind of prejudice and discrimination that liberals ordinarily decry.

I really couldn't care less about transgenders in sport. But let's not fool ourselves this is not about sport, it's about the anti LGBT agenda of you angry Evangelicals.

I said earlier that I really don't care. Actually, I think it would be hilarious if political correctness results in women's sports being effectively eliminated by men competing as women. The only interest I have in this topic is the way it exposes liberal hypocrisy.

[Sparko]

And your factual basis for this positive claim is...?

[carpedm9587]

Right...pictures. So...

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So now we've both uploaded pictures...which basically proves... nothing.

Back to the actual question: Your factual basis for this claim is...?

[Sparko]

Right...pictures. So...

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So now we've both uploaded pictures...which basically proves... nothing.

Back to the actual question: Your factual basis for this claim is...?

Were the men in your photos athletes as men? No.

My point was that male athletes who continue to exercise will maintain more muscles than the average woman. They also have a bigger frame. The claim was that a male would lose his muscles when taking hormones. The photos I shared proves that claim false.

You posting photos of skinny weak men who became skinny weak women doesn't counteract that one bit.

this Guy:



Would not be a muscular woman no matter what.

[carpedm9587]

Were the men in your photos athletes as men? No.

My point was that male athletes who continue to exercise will maintain more muscles than the average woman. They also have a bigger frame. The claim was that a male would lose his muscles when taking hormones. The photos I shared proves that claim false.

You posting photos of skinny weak men who became skinny weak women doesn't counteract that one bit.

this Guy:



Would not be a muscular woman no matter what.

And your factual basis for these claims is...?

[Psychic Missile]

Were the men in your photos athletes as men? No.

My point was that male athletes who continue to exercise will maintain more muscles than the average woman. They also have a bigger frame. The claim was that a male would lose his muscles when taking hormones. The photos I shared proves that claim false.

You posting photos of skinny weak men who became skinny weak women doesn't counteract that one bit.

this Guy:



Would not be a muscular woman no matter what.

People with more testosterone have an easier time building and maintaining muscle while people with less testosterone have a harder time building and maintaining muscle, true or false?

[Tassman]

Weaker relative to the average man, perhaps, but transgender athletes are still biological men competing against biological women.

No, not when the use of estrogen supplements and testosterone blockers etc cause a decrease in muscle mass, bone density, and oxygen-carrying red blood cells. This leads to a decrease in strength, speed, and endurance. They have in effect, become "biological women".

But I'm not sure why we're even talking about estrogen supplements and the like. Aren't liberals always saying that one's gender is whatever one decides it is regardless of biological reality? Telling a transgender that he can't compete as a woman because he hasn't subjected himself to self-mutilating medical procedures is exactly the kind of prejudice and discrimination that liberals ordinarily decry.

The only “prejudice and discrimination” here is yours.

I said earlier that I really don't care. Actually, I think it would be hilarious if political correctness results in women's sports being effectively eliminated by men competing as women. The only interest I have in this topic is the way it exposes liberal hypocrisy.

It's obvious that your “only interest in this topic” is to mock and deride transgender folk in the best evangelical redneck tradition.

[carpedm9587]

Just to be clear on what I am (and have been) saying, I have no doubt that there is a biological difference between men and women. I am also clear on the role estrogen and testosterone play in building muscle mass. I am also aware that, with today's technology, a man can boost testosterone block testosterone and boost estrogen. A woman can do the reverse, muddying the biological waters. I am also reasonably sure that any group of people continually getting the message from their surrounding culture that they "can't do X" are going to have a psychological impact on their ability to do X. If it follows the usual trends, some will be crushed by it, some will be completely unaffected by it, and pretty much everything in between.

What I have been saying is that the biology has been study. I find no studies on the cultural/social influences. So any claim that these cultural/social influences have "zero impact" is simply an unsupportable claim. Any claim that men will always exceed women in sports is an unsupportable claim. We simply don't have the data. In strength-related activities, men at peak performance currently have a 30-40% gap with women. For other more endurance-related sports, the gap appears to be 10%. For skill-related sports, the gap is even narrower, if it exists at all. How all of that would shift if the cultural/social message were eliminated is an unknown.

I frankly like the concept of XX Games and X Games. Other than the meaningless disparaging adjectives commonly used (silly, stupid, etc.) and the sea of condescending emojis, does anyone have a practical, thought-out argument for why such an arrangement would not be a practical solution?

[Mountain Man]

No, not when the use of estrogen supplements and testosterone blockers etc cause a decrease in muscle mass, bone density, and oxygen-carrying red blood cells. This leads to a decrease in strength, speed, and endurance. They have in effect, become "biological women".

No, they really haven't, and the fact that you believe this simply goes to show how scientifically ignorant you are.

And you still haven't addressed the point of why self-mutilation therapy is even a topic in this debate. It smells like a red herring to me. Tell me, are you opposed to men who identify as women competing in women's sports unless they figuratively and literally castrate themselves? Why? That's not very tolerant of you. Bad liberal.

[LeaC]

No, not when the use of estrogen supplements and testosterone blockers etc cause a decrease in muscle mass, bone density, and oxygen-carrying red blood cells. This leads to a decrease in strength, speed, and endurance. They have in effect, become "biological women".

If you have to put quotes around "biological women", chances are you're not quoting legitimate science. The current IOC policy for transwomen is that they have to, in summary, lower their testosterone to the low end of normal for *male* persons. This means that a biological male with naturally-occurring low testosterone could compete in the Olympics against women, with no hormone therapy required and no testing of his 'muscle mass, bone density, and oxygen-carrying red blood cells', none of which has been proven to be a side effect of HRT anyway. The next sentence is entirely made up, by you, as no such tests have been done to compare. It's worth noting that the IOC has *no* requirements for transmen(female athletes) competing against men, because everyone knows that will never be issue. Female athletes will never be able to compete in the Olympics with men.

The only “prejudice and discrimination” here is yours.

Almost completely agree, if only "yours" meant you, Tassman. You show prejudice and discrimination against female athletes in favor of males who don't want or can't compete with other males. They are cheaters, and should be treated as such.

[Tassman]

If you have to put quotes around "biological women", chances are you're not quoting legitimate science.

There are “quotes” around it because I was quoting MM, dummy! But perhaps you’re correct, MM is hardly a legitimate source for anything.

The current IOC policy for transwomen is that they have to, in summary, lower their testosterone to the low end of normal for *male* persons. This means that a biological male with naturally-occurring low testosterone could compete in the Olympics against women, with no hormone therapy required and no testing of his 'muscle mass, bone density, and oxygen-carrying red blood cells', none of which has been proven to be a side effect of HRT anyway.

Trans women do, I believe, want to lower their testosterone levels in any event. Their purpose is to be a womanly as possible.

The next sentence is entirely made up, by you, as no such tests have been done to compare. It's worth noting that the IOC has *no* requirements for transmen(female athletes) competing against men, because everyone knows that will never be issue. Female athletes will never be able to compete in the Olympics with men.

It was a direct quote from Joanna Harper (April 1, 2015). "Do transgender athletes have an edge? I sure don't" - cited in The Washington Post. This was posted earlier in the thread if you’d been bothering to follow it.

Almost completely agree, if only "yours" meant you, Tassman. You show prejudice and discrimination against female athletes in favor of males who don't want or can't compete with other males. They are cheaters, and should be treated as such.

I don’t believe so. They want to compete with women because they identify as women. I would have thought this was obvious to anyone not set on discrimination and prejudice.

[LeaC]

Trans women do, I believe, want to lower their testosterone levels in any event. Their purpose is to be a womanly as possible.

Based on... what? The definition of 'transwoman' is a male-bodied person who says they feel like a woman. There is no legal or medical standard for what that means that any activist or organization has agreed to so far. And that isn't the point - if you pass a rule saying that it is acceptable for a male to compete against women under certain conditions, then you have to consider ANY GIVEN MALE competing under the letter of what those conditions say. If that allows for cheating, then it's a bad rule. Google Danielle Muscato sometime, "she's" both a "woman" and an atheist.

It was a direct quote from Joanna Harper (April 1, 2015). "Do transgender athletes have an edge? I sure don't" - cited in The Washington Post. This was posted earlier in the thread if youÂ’d been bothering to follow it.

Wow, a self report from a person with every reason to lie. Not convincing doesn't begin to express it.

I donÂ’t believe so. They want to compete with women because they identify as women. I would have thought this was obvious to anyone not set on discrimination and prejudice.

I can't tell if you're really this naive, ignorant, or you just don't care. Bit of a mix?

[Mountain Man]

They want to compete with women because they identify as women. I would have thought this was obvious to anyone not set on discrimination and prejudice.

Yet you're the one insisting that any man who wishes to compete as a woman should subject himself to mutilation before he be allowed to compete. Why? Where is your sense of compassion for men who identify as women but don't want to change their bodies? Why, for instance, should a man with a classic Arnold Schwarzenegger physique but who self-identifies as a woman be prohibited from entering a woman's weightlifting competition?

Will you answer this time, or will you continue to duck and dodge around your own hypocrisy?