Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I'm seeing a couple of bizarre arguments coming up online from right-wingers as they try to defend the indefensible.

    The first is they wrongly understand the label that these people are "undocumented immigrants" and wrongly believe therefore we don't know anything about them because they lack documents. This makes the mistake of misunderstanding what "undocumented" means with regard to immigrants - it means that they lack the specific documents giving them permission to be in the US such as a valid and current visa or green card. It does not, at all, in any way, mean they lack documents in general. A person could turn up with their passport, driver's license, birth certificate, tax number, every bank statement they have received in their life, school records, police records, every document their government has ever issued them, and still be "undocumented" in the sense of not having a valid visa to enter the US. Indeed, anyone seeking asylum is going to do their best to turn up with as many documents as they possibly can in order to prove to the asylum judges in the US that they come from a country that the US acknowledges is a dangerous country, and from an area of that country that the US agrees is a dangerous area, and that they themselves have good reason to fear for their lives (e.g. police records documenting a history of spousal abuse against them, death threats received etc). They bring all those documents to prove to a US court that they need asylum. Their entry into the US might be illegal and therefore they are 'undocumented immigrants', but they don't lack documents proving who and what they are.

    The second bizarre claim I'm seeing is the wild claim that the 'families' being separated aren't really families at all and that the people bringing the children across the border are not their mothers but rather child traffickers of some kind. I know of zero credible evidence to support this being the case in any instances. But, if there was concern about that, by all means do a DNA test to confirm parentage. They cost less than $200 (and must be cheaper if you're doing them in bulk), a tiny fraction of the cost of housing and processing these immigrants. Of course, it will be a total waste of money, since it seems pretty obvious that these parents are actually the parents of these children.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      They are only held there for 72 hours until they are transferred to HHS. It is only the initial intake according to the news conference today. And yes, both Obama and Bush did the same thing.
      So after you have written hundreds of rather theoretical pages on how ethics should not be relative you are confronted with the harsh reality and one of the first things you point out is: "And yes, both Obama and Bush did the same thing."

      Starting to believe in relative ethics or did you just make a point that is unimportant in the debate?
      Last edited by Charles; 06-19-2018, 12:30 AM.
      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        It's pretty simple: They hate immigrants and/or love Trump and/or love triggering the libs, more than they love families. #RepublicanValues
        Yes, according to the stats, whites with college degrees are more likely than non-college whites to oppose the policy, whereas the majority of non-college whites support it. In short, Trump voters. Sad!
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          But, but, what about when the Obama administration did something bad like this one time!?!
          Did he? Whilst Republican and Democratic presidents have struggled with illegal immigration, the Trump administration is the first to enforce a "zero tolerance" policy that has separated about 2,000 children from their parents in the past several weeks.

          According to a Trump tweet: “Separating families at the Border is the fault of bad legislation passed by the Democrats. Border Security laws should be changed but the Dems can’t get their act together! Started the Wall.” 4:58 AM - 5 Jun 2018.

          It's not. Trump is lying again. There is no federal law that stipulates that children and parents be separated at the border, no matter how families entered the United States. An increase in child detainees separated from parents stemmed directly from a change in enforcement policy repeatedly announced by Sessions in April and May 2018, under which adults (with or without children) are criminally prosecuted for attempting to enter the United States”.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Apparently Hillary is exploiting this by asking people to send her money. She says so she can give it to groups that are working to fix this but then why doesn't she just ask people to donate directly to those groups?

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Did he?
              I was mocking the whataboutism and "if Obama ever did anything bad, then it's fine if Trump does the same thing ten times worse" attitude of some posters on this forum.

              However it appears that at some point in the Obama administration there were some children in cages. The number of children held like this, and the lengths of time they were held, aren't clear to me. But it is clear that such treatment is utterly unacceptable, and if Obama did it at all he needs to answer for it too.

              A lot of progressives are calling for the complete abolition of ICE for this reason, as the organisation which was established under the Bush administration post 9/11, has shown itself criminally incapable of handling children properly and has behaved like a terrorist organisation (deliberately terrorizing immigrant communities) under all the administrations it has existed for.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Apparently Hillary is exploiting this by asking people to send her money. She says so she can give it to groups that are working to fix this but then why doesn't she just ask people to donate directly to those groups?
                Are you speculating it's hypothetically possibly that she might treat her charity as a personal bank account, like Trump and his children are currently being prosecuted for actually doing?
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • I'm curious to know if anyone here can answer this question. Trump recently blamed the Democrats for this policy, stating that they were "following laws the Democrats had left them with." I can not find any law that requires the separation of families, never mind one that the Democrats created. Does anyone know what law Trump is talking about? Or has he, once again, put forward a lie to influence the public sector and rally his base?

                  I have to admit to being surprised that the party of "family values" is leaning in favor of this policy. I'm not surprised the Dems are against it. I have to admit that, as the news unfolds, I lean more and more against it.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    I was mocking the whataboutism and "if Obama ever did anything bad, then it's fine if Trump does the same thing ten times worse" attitude of some posters on this forum.

                    However it appears that at some point in the Obama administration there were some children in cages. The number of children held like this, and the lengths of time they were held, aren't clear to me. But it is clear that such treatment is utterly unacceptable, and if Obama did it at all he needs to answer for it too.
                    Under Obama they were often held for months:

                    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.9fd7214e7fd9

                    A lot of progressives are calling for the complete abolition of ICE for this reason, as the organisation which was established under the Bush administration post 9/11, has shown itself criminally incapable of handling children properly and has behaved like a terrorist organisation (deliberately terrorizing immigrant communities) under all the administrations it has existed for.
                    What would your country do Star if tens of thousands of immigrants illegally entered your country? Are your policies better than ours? How so?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      I'm curious to know if anyone here can answer this question. Trump recently blamed the Democrats for this policy, stating that they were "following laws the Democrats had left them with." I can not find any law that requires the separation of families, never mind one that the Democrats created. Does anyone know what law Trump is talking about? Or has he, once again, put forward a lie to influence the public sector and rally his base?

                      I have to admit to being surprised that the party of "family values" is leaning in favor of this policy. I'm not surprised the Dems are against it. I have to admit that, as the news unfolds, I lean more and more against it.
                      From what I understood from the news conference, in the past if you came in illegally, and were caught, you are your family could be immediately deported back to your home country. Now (or since both Clinton and Bush) we can no longer do that, we have to hold and process them. One of the problems is that there is a 300% increase in adults claiming that the kids are theirs when they are not - possible traffickers. I mean we just don't know if the kids do belong to the so called parents. And last, this only happens to those who cross the border illegally, which is a crime. Children are not separated from the family if they go through the legal asylum process, which at this point is the vast majority.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        And last, this only happens to those who cross the border illegally, which is a crime. Children are not separated from the family if they go through the legal asylum process, which at this point is the vast majority.
                        AFAICT, that is not true.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          What would your country do Star if tens of thousands of immigrants illegally entered your country?
                          Not take babies and toddlers off their parents, or stick children in cages like you immoral scum do.

                          Are your policies better than ours?
                          Yes.

                          How so?
                          We're not disgustingly immoral scumbags who separate families, break international law, and commit crimes against humanity, and who pretty much seem to need a Nuremberg Tribunal to set you straight.

                          To directly answer your question, enforcement actions against the numerous visa over-stayers here tend to be pretty weak-sauce. People who are caught (predominantly single Chinese students who come here to go to university and don't quite get around to leaving) do eventually get deported, but I don't think the authorities try very hard or are funded very well. According to the linked article there are known to be about 11,000 of them at present (which can be calculated from people who's visas are known to have expired but have not taken outgoing flights) and the response from officials is to basically shrug and say "well, what can you do?".

                          What would we do if we got thousands at once? Probably welcome them. My country tends to be pretty pro-immigration as a whole, has one of the highest immigration rates in the OECD, and has taken tens of thousands of pacific islanders in over the years (to the point where there are far more Islanders now living in our largest city than the entire populations remaining on the islands they came from). Recently Australia got a lot of illegals at once that they caught and didn't want and weren't sure what to do with, so we offered to take them off their hands and let them settle here (Australia didn't want that though because there's freedom of movement between here and Australia). Though high immigration is pushing up house prices here a lot, and there's increasing concern about that.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            From what I understood from the news conference, in the past if you came in illegally, and were caught, you are your family could be immediately deported back to your home country. Now (or since both Clinton and Bush) we can no longer do that, we have to hold and process them. One of the problems is that there is a 300% increase in adults claiming that the kids are theirs when they are not - possible traffickers. I mean we just don't know if the kids do belong to the so called parents. And last, this only happens to those who cross the border illegally, which is a crime. Children are not separated from the family if they go through the legal asylum process, which at this point is the vast majority.
                            I'm not seeing an answer to my question in any of this. I understand we have to hold and process. I would like to see source data for the 300% claim - I have seen this made over and over again and I am finding no source for the claim. Even if true, how does this translate into "take all children from their families," for illegal crossers? There is no indication that parents who have documentation that proves the children are their own are being allowed to stay with their children.

                            And the housing and care situation for the children is abysmal. It is unfathomable that this is being done in our names (U.S. Citizens).

                            I had mixed feelings, until I began to dig into the conditions.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              I'm curious to know if anyone here can answer this question. Trump recently blamed the Democrats for this policy, stating that they were "following laws the Democrats had left them with." I can not find any law that requires the separation of families, never mind one that the Democrats created. Does anyone know what law Trump is talking about? Or has he, once again, put forward a lie to influence the public sector and rally his base?
                              The media is pretty much universally decrying it as a complete Trump lie. Obviously it isn't legally required because it didn't used to happen and the Trump administration deliberately and publicly changed policy to make it happen. So it's pretty self-evidently a lie.

                              e.g. LA Times:
                              The president, of course, has tried once again to confuse the issue by tweeting out misinformation. In this case, he urged his followers to "put pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children from there [sic] parents once they cross the Border into the U.S." But there is no such law. It is true that, as a matter of policy, children are being separated from their undocumented parents. But this is entirely the result of the Trump administration's new "zero-tolerance" policy in charging all border crossers with a crime. It is not a law, and is certainly not something done by the Democrats.


                              Also:


                              As to the question of what is Trump even talking about, i.e. what does he think he might be referring to? Obviously he himself has no clue about anything, he just watches Fox News and heard someone say it on that once.

                              But what appears to be happening is this:
                              When an asylum seeker crosses into the US illegally, she commits a federal misdemeanor. Under previous administrations, the Department of Homeland Security usually processed her asylum case first rather than referring her to the Department of Justice for federal prosecution. Even if DHS referred her for prosecution, DOJ wouldn’t usually bother to actually prosecute her before her asylum case was complete....

                              In April, Sessions announced that everyone who got referred by DHS to DOJ for illegal entry would be charged with the misdemeanor and prosecuted by US attorneys. Now, DHS is announcing that it will refer everyone for prosecution — including asylum seekers with children...

                              An increasing share of border crossers seeking asylum come as “family units”: one or more adults with one or more children... And it’s much harder for the government to detain whole immigrant families than it is for them to detain adults.

                              Federal court rulings have set strict standards on the conditions under which families can be detained. Under the Obama administration, courts ruled that they couldn’t be kept in detention for more than 20 days.

                              The Trump administration’s solution, now codified in policy, is to stop treating them as families: to detain the parents as adults and place the children in the custody of Health and Human Services as “unaccompanied minors.”

                              They don’t have to charge parents in criminal court to separate them. But filing criminal charges and transferring defendants to the custody of the US Marshals Service requires children to be separated and sent into HHS custody.

                              Under the new policy, DHS emphasizes, parents will be reunited with their children once they are returned to ICE custody after their criminal case is completed. DOJ says that in most cases, an immigrant won’t be sent back to ICE custody until she’s finished serving her criminal sentence. That won’t be any longer than six months — the maximum sentence for a first-time illegal entry conviction — and may very well be less.

                              But it’s not clear how ICE is going to guarantee reunification. Some parents have ended up separated from their children for months, even after being released from immigration detention. And HHS has lost track of 1,500 unaccompanied children between October 2016 and December 2017, raising serious questions about how easily they could be reunited with their parents in ICE detention centers after the conclusion of a criminal case.

                              What I think the people who Trump got his talking points from are trying to blame the Democrats for, is the court decisions during Obama's presidency that limited the time families could be imprisoned for at 20 days. Because the Trump administration wants to imprison them longer than that, it needs to get around the courts by declaring them not to actually be families and breaking up the families.

                              I have to admit to being surprised that the party of "family values" is leaning in favor of this policy.
                              As I have pointed out several times recently on this forum, the Republicans are not, nor have ever been, the party of actually valuing family. I have challenged anyone to name me a single Republican policy that is pro-family. Republicans are consistently against the pro-family policies put forward by Democrats (e.g. parental leave, healthcare for the entire family, etc). "Family values" always meant valuing a specific type of family structure and seeking to harm families that were deemed insufficiently in conformance with that type.
                              Last edited by Starlight; 06-19-2018, 08:07 AM.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                AFAICT, that is not true.
                                What is not true? Link please.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                86 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                281 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                109 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                195 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                355 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X