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Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

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  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Although the real icing on the cake is how Starlight calls littlejoe a women because he can’t be bothered to read a post bit while claiming he is more likely to fact check things. Sometimes you can’t make this stuff up.
    Apparently you can make this stuff up... I called LittleJoe a woman?!? Are you confusing this with MM or CP calling me a drama queen?
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      The ACLU is already complaining about Trump signing the executive order that Schumer wanted him to sign, keeping the parents and children together in the detention centers.
      Because it's not the executive order they actually wanted. What they were looking for was Trump to say, "We will not enforce current immigration laws in any way, shape, or form," and then give liberals a blank check to rewrite the law however they please. Like I said, their ultimate goal is to see the Southern border erased entirely.
      Last edited by Mountain Man; 06-21-2018, 07:40 AM.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Apparently you can make this stuff up... I called LittleJoe a woman?!? Are you confusing this with MM or CP calling me a drama queen?
        Your post:

        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Does she not realize that Brexit was majorly about immigration concerns? Though nothing would surprise me about her levels of ignorance at this point.
        Which was in response to Roy responding to littlejoe. Did you not read who was being responded to than Mr. ‘Fact checker’?
        Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 06-21-2018, 07:42 AM.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          When I look at newspapers and "fact check" sites, I look for consistency across common media.
          In other words, if multiple liberally biased sources all tell you what you want to hear then that's good enough for you.

          I suppose this is despite the fact that many liberal sources basically copy from each other without bothering to check the veracity of the original claim -- apropos to this thread, the recent Obama-era pictures of kids in cages that made their rounds and were falsely attributed to the Trump administration; nobody bothered to check the original source and just parroted what each other said.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Apparently you can make this stuff up... I called LittleJoe a woman?!?
            You did, unfortunately.
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
            MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

            mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              So you don’t care that a group of partisan hacks are trying to pass themselves off as impartial judges of truth?
              I don't believe they ARE "partisan hacks trying to pass themselves off as impartial judges of truth."

              OK, I've read both articles, and reviewed some of the sources. Here is what I found:

              Sanders: responded to clarifying questions
              Trump: did not respond to clarifying questions

              Sanders: used older data
              Trump: used current data

              Sanders: used the data consistently with its intent (unemployed and underemployed)
              Trump: took data with one intent (employment percentage) and "flipped" it resulting in use of the data that does not align with conventional use

              Sanders: rated "mostly true"
              Trump: rated "mostly false"

              I actually concur with the distinction. While Sanders used more dated numbers and needs to update them, Trump attempted to ignore the actual unemployment statistics for black youth, and replace them with 100% - "employed black youth." But "unemployment," as the article states, has a well-defined meaning and use in employment statistics (those actively seeking work). This is intentional. There are always people in any population that don't want to be working. They may be in college and have scholarships, they could be living with and supporting parents who are financially supporting them in turn, they could be doing unpaid internships, they could be disabled, and so forth. The unemployment number specifically seeks to exclude these and focus on those who want to be working and are not. Trump essentially ignored this distinction to exaggerate the numbers.

              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              Glad you do.

              And can you show where I said this isn’t an issue on both sides?
              Can you show me where I accused you of doing that?

              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              And yet you show a history of being far harder on sources from the right vs the left.
              I can understand why you would think that. Most of the posts here are "from the right," and relatively few are "from the left." I take each source and evaluate it on its merits. Unfortunately, a lot of people here choose to point to Brietbart and other such sources, which are notoriously partisan. No big surprise, most of my comments (here) will be a negative assessment of partisan sources that lean right. If someone draws on a partisan source that leans left, I am (and will continue to be) equally critical.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                I don't think that I've ever seen you merely dismiss anything as a left-wing meme.
                If you can find a place where I responded to someone posting a left-wing meme that I did not call them on...please let me know. I (hopefully) am not that partisan.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  The lawyer was saying the situation changed dramatically post-2007, so your anecdotes from the 90s aren't exactly relevant. He said all border-crossers he's met among the thousands of illegal immigrants he's worked with (in D.C. where he works) crossed pre-2007 with none having crossed subsequent to that, and that 100% of illegals he's encountered who entered post-2007 were visa over-stayers.
                  That's nuts. Downright ludicrous. And, perhaps you should check your map of the US, if you have maps, such as, that, DC is nowhere near the southern border. I actually live here.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    So have I. And rogue. And Seer, and I believe Mountain Man. Go back and read the thread.
                    I believe I have responded to all of the posted links and sources. If there is one I have not, let me know.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • It's curious to me that liberals blast Trump for enforcing the law (as he should), but don't have a single word of criticism for those who violate it.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        A lot of studies on the topic have found that left-wingers tend to fact-check at a much higher rate than right-wingers (probably at least partially because they believe in the inherent validity of fact-checking websites), so false memes have a very short lifetime on the left, while false right-wing memes tend to spread unchecked.
                        Yeah no. I have seen multiple folks deal with memes and arguements on both sides
                        Some happen to do so incredibly poorly. Politifact for instance said thst combined occupy democrats and the 98 percent were almost never sccurate.
                        sigpic

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                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          If you can find a place where I responded to someone posting a left-wing meme that I did not call them on...please let me know. I (hopefully) am not that partisan.
                          You've posted a few yourself in the funny political pictures thread - for "balance", you said.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I believe I have responded to all of the posted links and sources. If there is one I have not, let me know.
                            Oh, yes, you responded, alright... you just didn't meaningfully engage the facts that were presented. As is typical for you, you invented breezy excuses to not have to engage them and then went on your merry way.

                            Discussions with you are like the Marx Bros. routine where Groucho reads a lengthy contract with Chico repeatedly objecting, "I don'a like that; take it out," until the contract is reduced to nothing but a line and the words "Sign Here".
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              depends entirely on the misdemeanor and circumstance. If the crime involves avoiding the authorities or a flight risk, then they are arrested.
                              Agreed.

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Are you insane?
                              No. Does asking such questions make you feel better about yourself?

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Give a ticket to people who do not have papers, are not citizens and have no permanent address? That are trying to sneak into the country illegally? Exactly how would that work? Please. Tell me.
                              If you've been reading my posts, you would know that is NOT a strategy I recommend generally. I included it for the sake of completeness. It has, however, been a selective practice for many past presidents, so lets look at it a bit.

                              First, we're talking about families only. There is no need to do so for adults traveling independently, they can be prosecuted and detained.
                              Second, statistically, 67% of so-called "catch-and-release" immigrants actually show up for their immigration review (the 80% don't show up number is false).
                              Third, the number of illegal immigrants entering/captured is below 500K per year and dropping.
                              Fourth, "parents with children" is a subset of the incoming immigrant flow, so it is a fraction of the 500K number. I do not know what that fraction is (half? quarter? three fourths?) and cannot find the number.

                              These are things we know. I also offer the following speculations:

                              First, I suspect the percentage actually showing up for their immigration hearings is likely higher for families. They are more likely to get leniency, and it is harder to hide an entire family than a single adult or couple. Parents tend to want to care for their kids.
                              Second, I suspect the number of crimes committed by adults with children is significantly lower than that committed by independent adults entering illegally.

                              So, we're talking about possibly limiting "catch and release" to a portion of the incoming illegal immigrants (families), that have a decent likelihood of showing up for their hearings, and a low probability of committing crimes.

                              I'm not seeing something here to get me all that concerned with the idea. It would be better if we had some sort of tracking system for such families (e.g., the house-arrest bracelets used by law enforcement), or perhaps U.S.-based "host families" willing to take legal responsibility (I would sign up for that in a flat minute).

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              The law says that someone who enters the country illegally is arrested. Where they keep them is called a jail. Whether it is in a warehouse or an actual jail, it is the same thing. The liberals will not be happy unless the parents and children are released and free to enter the country. The ACLU is already complaining about Trump signing the executive order that Schumer wanted him to sign, keeping the parents and children together in the detention centers.
                              I frankly don't care what "the liberals" want. Like the conservatives, they are going to leverage this issue for political points in any way that they can. The result (usually) is that actual people get caught in the cross hairs, and there is no solution put forward because each side is entrenched and unwilling to give one iota of ground.

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Who said they are going to a federal prison??????
                              Show me that!
                              You're right. "Federal penitentiary" was incorrect on my part. I read an article about detention centers and the phrase that they were sometimes using actual correctional facilities stuck in my head. By the time I wrote my response, "correctional facilities" had transformed to "federal prisons" and I misspoke. You were right to call me on it, and I appreciate the correction.
                              Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2018, 08:58 AM.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                In other words, if multiple liberally biased sources all tell you what you want to hear then that's good enough for you.
                                No - you don't have that right.

                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                I suppose this is despite the fact that many liberal sources basically copy from each other without bothering to check the veracity of the original claim -- apropos to this thread, the recent Obama-era pictures of kids in cages that made their rounds and were falsely attributed to the Trump administration; nobody bothered to check the original source and just parroted what each other said.
                                The problem of false information being replicated by other news outlets happens across the media landscape and is not limited to left or right. In this age of "instant information," such errors tend to spread faster and wider. When the source is a trusted news source (e.g., Reuters, AP, etc.), it is often picked up and repeated quickly before errors are caught.

                                Perhaps one positive side of the relentless attack on media that Trump is waging is that media outlets are getting more and more sensitive to error. Perhaps we will see that dynamic reversed as a result.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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