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Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    And that is why we are the richest country in the world - because, mostly, we have not embraced socialism.
    No exactly. In terms of total wealth, the U.S. dominates. In terms of wealth per capita, Norway and Ireland (both socialist countries) are past us. One things that differs is that they do not have the degree of "working poor" we have, because they don't have a Republican party defending the rights of big business to make any profit they can at the expense of their own workers. The U.S. has the most wealth, but that wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few. 50% of our population was an average wealth of zero! The lowest 20% is actually underwater. Meanwhile, the top 1% have 35% of the wealth of our country.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    I am much more concerned with our working poor.
    See above...

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Let me give you a real world consequence. About ten of my sons friends had good paying jobs in roofing and construction a few years back - not one of them have those jobs any more, they were all taken by legal and illegal aliens. Today their jobs pay much less (Home Depot and such). The immigrants live 15-20 people to an apartment (which I know first hand since it happens in my neighborhood) - and will work for less than minimum and pool their money. Now if you are a contractor you may not want to hire such people, but if your competition does you have little choice. So not only does this take away jobs for our working poor, it suppresses wages in general. This, again, is the fault of both parties.
    An example is not a argument, Seer, as I've said before. Here in Vermont, itinerant workers are the lifeblood of many of our farms. When the workers were not permitted in under Trump, many farms went under because they could not find the labor they needed to survive.

    That too is not an argument - it is merely an example. A thorough argument would be had by looking at immigration affects across the country. You should do that, turning to sites OTHER than the usual right-wing, anti-immigrant sites. Look at the data from Pew Research and the Brookings Institute. You might be surprised by what you find.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • ... forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us ... means be nice to illegals or God will not forgive your sins.
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        No exactly. In terms of total wealth, the U.S. dominates. In terms of wealth per capita, Norway and Ireland (both socialist countries) are past us. One things that differs is that they do not have the degree of "working poor" we have, because they don't have a Republican party defending the rights of big business to make any profit they can at the expense of their own workers. The U.S. has the most wealth, but that wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few. 50% of our population was an average wealth of zero! The lowest 20% is actually underwater. Meanwhile, the top 1% have 35% of the wealth of our country.
        Yeah, well that is what happens in free markets. It isn't always fair, some people are lazy, stupid, addicted, others more ambition or had a better early family life, more advantages, etc...


        An example is not a argument, Seer, as I've said before. Here in Vermont, itinerant workers are the lifeblood of many of our farms. When the workers were not permitted in under Trump, many farms went under because they could not find the labor they needed to survive.

        That too is not an argument - it is merely an example. A thorough argument would be had by looking at immigration affects across the country. You should do that, turning to sites OTHER than the usual right-wing, anti-immigrant sites. Look at the data from Pew Research and the Brookings Institute. You might be surprised by what you find.
        Where did Trump stop legal workers from coming it? And BTW there are large studies about wage suppression and the loss of jobs. It is just a fact.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment




        • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          ... forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us ... means be nice to illegals or God will not forgive your sins.


          You ARE amusing.

          Opheilēma/opheiletēs -- debts.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post






            You ARE amusing.

            Opheilēma/opheiletēs -- debts.
            More pertinently, as 'trespasses' is a valid translation, being nice to people sometimes entails politely but firmly enforcing the law. It's called tough love - perhaps ff is unfamiliar with the concept.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

              An example is not a argument, Seer, as I've said before. Here in Vermont, itinerant workers are the lifeblood of many of our farms. When the workers were not permitted in under Trump, many farms went under because they could not find the labor they needed to survive.

              That too is not an argument - it is merely an example. A thorough argument would be had by looking at immigration affects across the country. You should do that, turning to sites OTHER than the usual right-wing, anti-immigrant sites. Look at the data from Pew Research and the Brookings Institute. You might be surprised by what you find.


              Isn't that kinda like arguing for slavery because slavery was the lifeblood of plantations, and when slavery was outlawed under Lincoln, many plantations went under because they could not find the labor they needed to survive?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Yeah, well that is what happens in free markets. It isn't always fair, some people are lazy, stupid, addicted, others more ambition or had a better early family life, more advantages, etc...
                Wow - the "poor people are lazy, stupid, addicted" perspective. Color me surprised. I note you did toss in the "more advantages" at the end, so good on you for movement in the right direction.

                And that, BTW, is the problem with "free markets." A truly free market optimizes one thing: dollars. So they will pollute if it maximizes dollars. They will pay sub-living wages if it maximizes profits. We have yet another example of a company screwing its employees so its most senior people can take golden parachutes as they abandon ship. Polaroid did it years ago. Now Toys R Us is doing the same thing, and there have been may others.

                Some of us have other priorities, which is why markets have to be regulated.

                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Where did Trump stop legal workers from coming it? And BTW there are large studies about wage suppression and the loss of jobs. It is just a fact.
                My antenna usually goes up when someone says, "it's just a fact." Usually, they are glossing over a complex reality to pull out one or two nuggets that supports their existing point of view. Trump cut immigration across the board, and only recently has had to reverse himself on worker visas for exactly the reason I cited. Further, the lack of adequate itinerant visas is one of the things that contributes to illegal immigration: itinerant workers can't get in legally, the business need their labor, so they sneak in and the businesses take a chance (or go belly up). Good old Americans are not lining up for these jobs.

                The reality, Seer, is that there are instances like the one you described, and there are instances like the ones going on in Vermont. What is needed is a comprehensive immigration policy that is NOT based in fear and hate and recognizes that immigration is important and immigrants are part of our heritage and a large part of how our country functions.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Now Toys R Us is doing the same thing...
                  They filed Chapter 11 last year, and filed a motion to liquidate their business a couple months ago. Don't you know NUTHIN about the toy world?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    They filed Chapter 11 last year, and filed a motion to liquidate their business a couple months ago. Don't you know NUTHIN about the toy world?
                    Yes - and did you follow what happened to the employees and what happened to the most senior management?
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Wow - the "poor people are lazy, stupid, addicted" perspective. Color me surprised. I note you did toss in the "more advantages" at the end, so good on you for movement in the right direction.
                      Those are facts Carp, and I also spoke about better upbringings. Let me give you an example - I fall into the lazy category. I grew up with guys in the lower middle class (both black and white) who with properties and assets would be considered millionaires today. These guys took risks, and when I was out partying every week end, working 9-5, they were working 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week. These kind of opportunities are pretty much open to anyone who works hard. I can't tell you how many people I know from India and Vietnam and from the Islands (Jamaica, Cuba, etc..) that have done extremely well in this great country - better than me, because, well I have always been a bit lazy.


                      My antenna usually goes up when someone says, "it's just a fact." Usually, they are glossing over a complex reality to pull out one or two nuggets that supports their existing point of view. Trump cut immigration across the board, and only recently has had to reverse himself on worker visas for exactly the reason I cited. Further, the lack of adequate itinerant visas is one of the things that contributes to illegal immigration: itinerant workers can't get in legally, the business need their labor, so they sneak in and the businesses take a chance (or go belly up). Good old Americans are not lining up for these jobs.
                      I'm still not sure what you mean, here in my state itinerant workers from Haiti and Dominican Republic are still coming up to pick our tobacco. At least they did last year.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Those are facts Carp, and I also spoke about better upbringings. Let me give you an example - I fall into the lazy category. I grew up with guys in the lower middle class (both black and white) who with properties and assets would be considered millionaires today. These guys took risks, and when I was out partying every week end, working 9-5, they were working 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week. These kind of opportunities are pretty much open to anyone who works hard. I can't tell you how many people I know from India and Vietnam and from the Islands (Jamaica, Cuba, etc..) that have done extremely well in this great country - better than me, because, well I have always been a bit lazy.
                        I took the liberty of bolding the mistaken line in your paragraph. If you think this, then you are either very sheltered, or you have swallowed the koolaid without much actual thought or exploration. I can assure you these opportunities are NOT open to anyone who works hard...and they are not EQUALLY open to everyone who works hard.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I'm still not sure what you mean, here in my state itinerant workers from Haiti and Dominican Republic are still coming up to pick our tobacco. At least they did last year.
                        I have no idea what the difference is. I do know we are losing farms because of the blocked access to itinerant workers in Vermont.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          And that is why we are the richest country in the world - because, mostly, we have not embraced socialism
                          On that topic, I came across this fascinating video yesterday. Fascinating, not least, because I'd never heard anyone directly address that question before and wasn't sure of the answer going into it:

                          Where In the World Is It Easiest To Get Rich?
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            ...
                            The children are of varying ages, from toddler to teen. I was not able to determine whether infants were also separated.
                            I'm just now seeing reports of some of that. My impression is that it's not widespread, and is a result of workers being overwhelmed.

                            The U.S. lost track of 1475 children in 2017.
                            Fake News.

                            Alternative Facts.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                            Justice for Matthew Perna!

                            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              They filed Chapter 11 last year, and filed a motion to liquidate their business a couple months ago.
                              As I skimmed over your post, I first assumed you were referring to Romans chapter 11, given Sessions keeps using Romans 13 to portray mindless obedience to his authoritarian whims as if it were a virtue. Took me a moment to parse it correctly.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • On the matters of "laws" and "policies" (and, significantly, "court rulings") --
                                Over the weekend, the media went insane over the supposed Trump administration policy of separating illegal immigrant parents from their children. According to the media, Trump could with one quick fix simply prevent the separation of children from their parents; according to the media, all Trump has to do is wave his magic wand, and all will be well.

                                This is a lie.

                                More specifically, it’s several lies.

                                1. Trump Created Separation Of Children From Illegal Immigrant Parents. This is plainly false. In 1997, the federal government made an agreement in a case called Flores not to keep unaccompanied illegal immigrant children in custody beyond twenty days. The settlement said nothing about accompanied illegal immigrant children – children who crossed the border with their parents. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals then ruled that accompanied children also could not be held in custody under the terms of the settlement. This meant that the government either had to release whole families, or that the government had to separate parents from children.

                                2. Immigrants Seeking Asylum Are Being Punished For Seeking Asylum. This is plainly untrue as well. Immigrants who come to points of entry to seek asylum aren’t actually illegally in the country – they’re not arrested. They’re processed through ICE, and their children stay with them. If, however, illegal immigrants cross the border illegally, the Trump administration now treats them as criminals. If they choose deportation, they aren’t separated from their kids; if they choose to apply for asylum, they stay in the country longer than 20 days, and their kids have to be removed by operation of law. ...


                                From here.
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Federalist.

                                Nationalist Christian.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                                Comment

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