Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children
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"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou keep saying that but it is not true. They did the same things."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostYou're right...if they don't get caught, there's really no way to know the actual number."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Charles View Post(If I was from the UK my English would be far better)."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostYou're right...if they don't get caught, there's really no way to know the actual number. (I know I read that number somewhere...but where?) But, just because there MAY be more leaving than coming in doesn't negate the millions that are already here. It's like the old canard of 50% of marriages end in divorce...that's never been accurate, but the number comes from taking the number of marriages in a year (approx. 2 million) and subtracting the number of divorces, (approx 1 million) and never accounting for all the ones already married who are not divorcing.
And you too are right - it does not negate the millions already here. And we need to do something about that. Stopping the flow at the borders is important, and I actually support a crack-down on illegal immigration. I simply don't think it should be done in a vacuum. I think the current 11M is partly the responsibility of those who came here, and partly the responsibility of our lax and poorly structured immigration laws. I think we should a) provide those already here with a path to citizenship (rigorous, and demanding, but affordable) as long as they have not trasngressed the law (something more serious than a speeding ticket or parking ticket), b) put a stake in the sand and make it clear that all other illegal immigrants entering from today will be returned without exception. c) clarify our asylum policies so people approaching ports of entry requesting asylum have an avenue for being evaluated and a determination made.
My reason for a) is simple: anything else is just too disruptive. The number of illegal immigrants that have been in the U.S. more than 10 years has soared in the last 10 years. MOST of the people currently here have been here for more than a decade. They are part of our country now. We had poor laws. We failed to follow up. We own part of the problem. There are many kids involved. Sorting it all out and exporting them all will cost a fortune and disrupt a lot of businesses and families. I don't see the gain.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWow, I assumed you were a native speaker. Your English seems perfect to me."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI was intrigued to read a comment from the immigration lawyer I cited earlier in the thread, that he believes the physical border is now completely secure due to modern technology and enforcement, because in his personal dealings with thousands of illegal immigrants he has never met a single one who recently (in the last decade) crossed the border without being caught at or near the border. His view was now that 100% of uncaught illegal immigration is via people landing in airplanes with valid visas and then overstaying after their visa has expired. Obviously government databases record people entering/exiting the country via airplanes and they can generate exact numbers and lists of the people who entered with a valid visa but who have not subsequently left the country."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostThen he would be wrong I'm afraid. On the CBS Evening News, (yesterday?) they were interviewing people in one of the border towns, and one woman told them that they swim across basically right across the street, then they run across the road and jump her fence. She showed the bowed top rail on her chain link fence and said that she's watched them do it. Not that long ago, they found a trailer with a bunch of illegal in it abandoned on the side of the road. They still find tunnels dug under the border. It's impossible to know if it's just a trickle of a flood. I know it's not a problem for day laborers to be found on street corners all over Texas. They work cheap and so, it's not hard for them to get work. They live 4 - 6 to a 2 bedroom apt. and split the rent. A job usually gets them under the table cash of between $75 - $100/day + free lunch. A man, trying to support a family, with a house or apt, etc. Can't compete with them.
I had to tell our employees, "Officially, if you have a gun in your truck, I'd have to fire you, but UNofficially, you're stupid if you DON'T have a gun".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostA general rule of thumb on the Internet is that anybody who apologizes for non-native English probably speaks it far better than most natives.
Why won't Trump's order solve the problem? Because the problem is caused by:
1. The Trump administration's choice to criminally prosecute everyone caught crossing the border for the first time rather than treating it more lightly (it's only a misdemeanor) like past administrations.
2. The Trump administration's choice to not let these people out on bail while their cases are pending, and to hold them in custody.
3. Past court rulings saying it's inhumane for the government to hold families with children in custody for longer than 20 days.
4. The Trump administration's choice to very legally dubiously 'get around' that ruling by breaking up families, and then claiming it's not holding the family in custody.
The memo says: Keep doing #1, keep doing #2, ask the courts to change their ruling on #3 so we can imprison families for longer than 20 days, don't do #4 unless it turns out that you have to in order to satisfy #1 through #3 (which it currently does, so no change).
Basically the memo says "don't imprison kids and separate families, unless all the choices we've made - which are reaffirmed in this memo - end up meaning you need to do so". So, no change as far as I can see."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYes, Pix, when you are rating the honesty of a claim, it's not a matter for science. You look at the words, you look at the things they refer to, you note the degree to which the claim aligns to the truth and the degree to which it attempts to "fudge" and you subjectively apply a rating. To assess the rating, you read the article and (hopefully) spot-check the claims.
When an opinion is about a "fact," it can be objectively assessed. It may be Trump's "opinion" that he won by the "greatest landslide in the history of the presidency," but that "opinion" does not pass scrutiny, since his electoral win places him 46th out of 58 elections. So..."pants on fire." Trump has made MANY such claims, none of which pass the sniff test for "truth."
You opinion is duly noted..."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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I don't know how useful spot checking claims is anymore since people will dismiss them out of hand.
One co-worker of mine was repeating the urban legend that Fred Rogers had a bunch of vulgar military tattoos from his youth, thus him wearing a cardigan. I told him that Snopes showed a picture of him shirtless (from an episode where he went swimming) and that he had no tattoos. He dismissed everything I said because of the word "Snopes". Even though Snopes is biased, in this case they provided photo evidence that directly refuted his claim, but he was unwilling to consider it. (This was especially odd since his claim had nothing to do with politics.)"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI don't know how useful spot checking claims is anymore since people will dismiss them out of hand.
One co-worker of mine was repeating the urban legend that Fred Rogers had a bunch of vulgar military tattoos from his youth, thus him wearing a cardigan. I told him that Snopes showed a picture of him shirtless (from an episode where he went swimming) and that he had no tattoos. He dismissed everything I said because of the word "Snopes". Even though Snopes is biased, in this case they provided photo evidence that directly refuted his claim, but he was unwilling to consider it. (This was especially odd since his claim had nothing to do with politics.)"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostThen he would be wrong I'm afraid. On the CBS Evening News, (yesterday?) they were interviewing people in one of the border towns, and one woman told them that they swim across basically right across the street, then they run across the road and jump her fence.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThey used to ask for a job ranch hand, and he would hire some of them - then in the 90's they just started taking what they wanted, and this one particular guy has had over 30 murders on his ranch."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostBottom line, Trump is CHOOSING to...
...prosecute these people
...send them to a federal penitentiary (which the children cannot go to)
I know, a president who actually believes in the rule of law is a crazy concept to you liberals after 8-years of a president who simply ignored whatever laws he didn't like and attempted to rule by fiat with a pen and a phone.Last edited by Mountain Man; 06-20-2018, 06:12 PM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostSnopes did it to themselves by playing to one side, but on tales that have little to do with politics, snopes is quite a bit better."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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