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Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

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  • Originally posted by Charles View Post
    I note that you are still trying to avoid the moral issue.

    I don't jump to conclusions, unlike you.


    Originally posted by Charles
    I am a bit baffled by your comment that he is not using Romans 13 to defend the policy of separating children from their families. You are playing a bit around with the words when you say: “The above is technically correct, but gives the false impression that Sessions used Romans 13 to defend separating children from their parents. He didn't, he used it to defend prosecuting people who break the immigration laws.”

    Sessions defends the fact that prosecuting people who break the immigration laws are prosecuted and thus their children are separated from them. You can see it in context and easily hear that he is using it to defend the separation of children from their families since this is the obvious consequence that you are trying to avoid confronting yourself with. I have seen many Christians express their disagreements with Sessions and while there generally is a lot of discussion the discussion is whether he was right or wrong. Not whether he used Romans to defend the separation of children from their parents. So I certainly donÂ’t need you to go through the statements. I have gone through them several times and read a lot of comments on them. It is quite obvious what the man is trying to do.

    And he goes on to defend it with rather weak arguments. A week or two may be a short period for a grown up but it is an eternity for a fearful child in a foreign country who has already suffered more than most of us have. He goes on to mention that other countries are also doing it as if it makes it better.

    No transcript, huh. Not willing to actually do the work required to analyse exactly what Sessions said.


    Originally posted by Charles
    The way Christians on tweb are so silent or provide useless inputs on an issue of such moral importance is duly noted.

    Se Sessions’ defence here: https://www.nbcnews.com/video/attorn...-1255988803632

    Christians are supposed to care about your moral assessment of their actions?
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      Point of clarification:

      A friend of mine is claiming that children are being forcibly separated from parents who attempt to claim asylum, which is 100% legal. Is this true?
      Based on the case described in the Slate article, yes.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Americans tend to vastly overestimate how many people actually want to move to America, and tend to not realize that all Western countries face the same high levels of people wanting to move to the West.

        In terms of illegal immigrants coming over your border though, you're basically reaping what you've sowed, because US foreign policy has been so atrocious in South and Central America over the last century (e.g. openly supporting terrorists in Nicaragua, overthrowing various governments via coups because banana companies asked you to ('banana republics') etc), and the US's ongoing stupid drug policies have caused huge drug cartel violence across many countries there. If you hadn't made those countries so awful, people wouldn't be so desperate to leave.
        Funny how the centuries of European aggression and stripping their resources isn’t included in yet another, ‘I HATE AMERICA!!!’ Starlight rant.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • How come you leftists weren't just as upset when Obama was doing the same thing.

          Mexican kids held for months as punishment for border-crossing

          By Joshua Partlow
          March 11, 2015

          LAREDO, Tex. — Last spring, as Central American children flooded into Texas in a way he had never seen in his three-decade career, Border Patrol agent Robert Harris decided to experiment.

          His intelligence analysts estimated that 78 percent of the guides smuggling other migrants were Mexicans younger than 18 — teenagers often hired or conscripted by drug cartels that knew they would not be prosecuted if caught — and he wanted to attack this loophole.

          “Why don’t we remove these juveniles from the smuggling cycle?” Harris, the outgoing commander of the Laredo sector of U.S. Customs and Border Protection, recalled thinking.

          Now, as a result of that decision, young Mexicans are being held for months without charge in shelters across the United States, sometimes without their parents’ knowledge. Since the program began in May, 536 juveniles have been held — 248 of whom have been deported to Mexico after an average stay of 75 days, according to Border Patrol statistics. Mexican authorities say some of these repeat border-crossers have spent as much as six months in U.S. custody while they await an appearance before an immigration judge.

          During their detention, they are questioned by U.S. authorities and then transferred to a network of facilities run by the Office of Refugee Resettlement, part of the Department of Health and Human Services, across 15 states. While confined, they undergo psychological evaluations and take English courses. Some are allowed tourist-type activities, such as going to the beach or museums, according to Mexican consular officials in Texas. At least one youth earned a high school general equivalency diploma.

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.93266eb57d25
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            How come you leftists weren't just as upset when Obama was doing the same thing.
            Both sides are using these kids as campaign fodder. It's disgusting. Congress has the power to fix this by changing the law. They don't want to fix it - they want it as an election issue.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
              I don't jump to conclusions, unlike you.
              I asked you to confront the moral issue. I don't see how your unsupported claim that I jump to conclusions can be a confrontation of the moral issues.


              Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
              No transcript, huh. Not willing to actually do the work required to analyse exactly what Sessions said.
              Wow! That was really cheap. In my post I provided a link in which you could hear what he actually said. Ready to take the discussion?

              Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
              Christians are supposed to care about your moral assessment of their actions?
              Ah, the genetic fallacy. I don't think many people will be impressed by that one. The idea that somehow Christians should have a monopoly on ethics is a rather extreme idea that I doubt you really hold. I would point you to the wise words of cardinal Timothy Dolan (I have quoted them in another post as well):

              If they want to take a baby from the arms of its’ mother and separate the two, that’s wrong. I don’t care where you at, what time and what condition, that just goes against… You don’t have to read the Bible for that. That goes against human decency. That goes against human dignity. It goes against what is most sacred in the human person.
              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                Maybe. I don't know how I would react in their situation.

                However, the children did not chose their parents and are not responsible for their actions. Yet, as a consequence of current policies they are traumatized. So the highest price is paid by those whom we know are innocent. I fail to see how that can be fair and I fail. You skipped a lot of my post in your answer.
                You don't think the parents marching their kids across hundreds of miles of desert, hiding them in trucks and containers, and crawling across the border in tunnels in the middle of the night to avoid being shot is traumatizing?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                  So, if I read you correctly, you, as a Christian, are saying that separating a child from its' parents is the best the system can do in a bad situation? I would say it is not good at all and cannot be justified under any circumstances. By doing something completely wrong you cannot possibly make the best of a bad situation. You can only make it even worse which is what they are doing to their eternal shame.

                  Do you agree with Sessions’ interpretation of Romans 13? In your heart, do you really believe a Christian should support these actions? Are you really comfortable with supporting this? I have a very hard time believing so.
                  The least traumatizing and best situation would be if the parents had never dragged their children into such a situation and stayed home.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    You don't think the parents marching their kids across hundreds of miles of desert, hiding them in trucks and containers, and crawling across the border in tunnels in the middle of the night to avoid being shot is traumatizing?
                    I don't see where I said anything that would make you think I don't think so. Please allow this thread to stay on topic.
                    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                      I don't see where I said anything that would make you think I don't think so. Please allow this thread to stay on topic.
                      It is perfectly on topic. You claimed the policy of separating the children from parents is traumatizing. The entire journey, instigated by their parents is traumatizing. If they wanted to avoid trauma they should have stayed home. The parents put them in a dangerous situation from the beginning. They endangered their lives the whole journey. And you are worried about the children being taken from these people and given a hot bath and food?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        It is perfectly on topic. You claimed the policy of separating the children from parents is traumatizing. The entire journey, instigated by their parents is traumatizing. If they wanted to avoid trauma they should have stayed home. The parents put them in a dangerous situation from the beginning. They endangered their lives the whole journey.
                        Stayed at home? I wonder how you have the heart to talk in such a hateful tone of people who have gone through so much suffering in order to do what they believe is best for their children. It seems to me you are looking desperately for someone or something else to blame than those who are actually responsible for separating children from their parents.

                        Another interesting point: even if your above absurd statement was true, would that justify the inhuman treatment of separating the children from their parents? And if so, then how come it is for a limited period of time, if you are trying to make the case that the parents are doing what is not in the childs interest? Time to find out where you want to put your feet.

                        Seriously, I think those of you who call yourself Christians should very, very seriously reconsider whether you really need to support this.

                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        And you are worried about the children being taken from these people and given a hot bath and food?
                        I am not worried about the child being given a bath and food. But, yes, I am worried about children being taken away from their parents. Anyone who has children whom they love will know exactly how I feel about that. You may like to focus on the food and the bath, but that is simply turning your blind eye to the unhuman action it is to take children away from their parents. Come on, you know this if you are honest. To make it seem as if everything is ok if you give the child food and a bath is not even a worthy attempt to try to understand the horror of the situation.

                        Give it a second thought. I feel quite certain that after all you are not all that happy about this policy either.
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                          Stayed at home? I wonder how you have the heart to talk in such a hateful tone of people who have gone through so much suffering in order to do what they believe is best for their children. It seems to me you are looking desperately for someone or something else to blame than those who are actually responsible for separating children from their parents.
                          They caused their suffering. They made them march hundreds and thousands of miles across rough terrain, deserts, sleeping in sand and being dehydrated, starving. You don't think that is traumatizing to the kids?

                          Another interesting point: even if your above absurd statement was true, would that justify the inhuman treatment of separating the children from their parents? And if so, then how come it is for a limited period of time, if you are trying to make the case that the parents are doing what is not in the childs interest? Time to find out where you want to put your feet.
                          You would rather the kids be thrown in jail with their parents? Would that be less traumatizing? The kids are given comfortable quarters, food, healthcare and all the other stuff their parents did not give them on during the trip.


                          Seriously, I think those of you who call yourself Christians should very, very seriously reconsider whether you really need to support this.
                          Your fake outrage is noted and dismissed.


                          I am not worried about the child being given a bath and food. But, yes, I am worried about children being taken away from their parents. Anyone who has children whom they love will know exactly how I feel about that. You may like to focus on the food and the bath, but that is simply turning your blind eye to the unhuman action it is to take children away from their parents. Come on, you know this if you are honest. To make it seem as if everything is ok if you give the child food and a bath is not even a worthy attempt to try to understand the horror of the situation.

                          Give it a second thought. I feel quite certain that after all you are not all that happy about this policy either.
                          The parents should not have tried to sneak over the border with the kids. They broke the law. The kids should not have to be put in jail too.

                          I suppose you think that when a parent breaks the law in your country, the kids should be thrown in prison along with them?


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            They caused their suffering. They made them march hundreds and thousands of miles across rough terrain, deserts, sleeping in sand and being dehydrated, starving. You don't think that is traumatizing to the kids?
                            And you are seriously suggesting the parents did this with no need for it? You would not consider that it takes a rather desperate situation in order for any person to go through all of this? And it would take even more for parents to bring theri children through it. I think you completely missed the depeartion of the situation or turn your blind eye to it in order put blame on others while ignoring the fact that free men in a free country separate children from their parents.

                            You only have a case for your story about these horrible parents if we ignore facts about their situation. That is how bad of a case you have got. And no one else than those separating the children from their parents should be held accountable.

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            You would rather the kids be thrown in jail with their parents? Would that be less traumatizing? The kids are given comfortable quarters, food, healthcare and all the other stuff their parents did not give them on during the trip.
                            Incomplete enumeration. They are not forced to put the parents in jail. They could perfectly well keep parents and children together under circumstances that would be good for both parents and children.

                            I don't know if I should laugh or cry about the last part of the quote: "The kids are given comfortable quarters, food, healthcare and all the other stuff their parents did not give them on during the trip." You do know what fleeing a desperate situation is, right?

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Your fake outrage is noted and dismissed.
                            There is no fake to it. But if it lying makes you feel better....

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            The parents should not have tried to sneak over the border with the kids. They broke the law. The kids should not have to be put in jail too.
                            See above. And no one has ever been able to give just one good argument, one good reason why the children should suffer in this way. Do you seriously think it is just?

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            I suppose you think that when a parent breaks the law in your country, the kids should be thrown in prison along with them?

                            If you make a basic logical analysis you will see that your argument is extremely weak. There is a rather huge difference between crossing a boarder illegaly in a desperate situation and doing what would cause a parent to go to jail in my country. If a parent is a murderer or has comitted very serious crimes I would think it was in the childs best interest to be taken care of by others. That situation in no way compares to what we are seeing in your country in which people in a desperate situation are made to suffer even more. The fact that you even think the situations compare is a mystery to me. And your lack of empathy for both the parents and the children is something I would not have expected to find among people who call themselves Christians.
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              And you are seriously suggesting the parents did this with no need for it? You would not consider that it takes a rather desperate situation in order for any person to go through all of this? And it would take even more for parents to bring theri children through it. I think you completely missed the depeartion of the situation or turn your blind eye to it in order put blame on others while ignoring the fact that free men in a free country separate children from their parents.
                              If it was worth the trauma to drag their kids across thousands of miles of desert then it is worth them being separated from the parents while the parents undergo investigation and are being held in jail.


                              You only have a case for your story about these horrible parents if we ignore facts about their situation. That is how bad of a case you have got. And no one else than those separating the children from their parents should be held accountable.
                              The facts are they marched from Central America across Mexico to get to the US Border. Most of Mexico is a desert. I used to live in El Paso Texas. You can die of dehydration in just a couple of days in the desert. There are poisonous snakes, scorpions, coyotes (the real ones as well as the human ones that steal your money and leave you to die. People die in the desert all the time. Adults. How heartless do you have to be to subject your children to that kind of danger?





                              Incomplete enumeration. They are not forced to put the parents in jail. They could perfectly well keep parents and children together under circumstances that would be good for both parents and children.
                              It's the law. Obama MADE IT THE LAW. Trump wants to put up a wall so they can't get into the country in the first place and then they won't have to be separated. They can just turn back.


                              I don't know if I should laugh or cry about the last part of the quote: "The kids are given comfortable quarters, food, healthcare and all the other stuff their parents did not give them on during the trip." You do know what fleeing a desperate situation is, right?
                              The parents put them in that desperate situation in the first place.

                              And if you go read that article MM posted earlier, complete with photos, you will see that where the children are being held is not a cage, but a comfortable base with beds, food, healthcare, and education and entertainment.


                              There is no fake to it. But if it lying makes you feel better....
                              Your fake outrage is clear for everyone to see Charles. You don't even know the facts of the situation.


                              See above. And no one has ever been able to give just one good argument, one good reason why the children should suffer in this way. Do you seriously think it is just?
                              One good reason: Their parents are criminals and we don't put children in jail with criminals.

                              If you make a basic logical analysis you will see that your argument is extremely weak. There is a rather huge difference between crossing a boarder illegaly in a desperate situation and doing what would cause a parent to go to jail in my country. If a parent is a murderer or has comitted very serious crimes I would think it was in the childs best interest to be taken care of by others. That situation in no way compares to what we are seeing in your country in which people in a desperate situation are made to suffer even more. The fact that you even think the situations compare is a mystery to me. And your lack of empathy for both the parents and the children is something I would not have expected to find among people who call themselves Christians.
                              The parents have placed their children in a dangerous situation which is irresponsible. They made them part of a crime too.

                              We throw people in jail for leaving their dogs in a car with the window rolled up in the summer time. Yet you think it is perfectly fine for parents to drag their children across hundreds of miles of dangerous terrain with little food and water????

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                If it was worth the trauma to drag their kids across thousands of miles of desert then it is worth them being separated from the parents while the parents undergo investigation and are being held in jail.


                                The facts are they marched from Central America across Mexico to get to the US Border. Most of Mexico is a desert. I used to live in El Paso Texas. You can die of dehydration in just a couple of days in the desert. There are poisonous snakes, scorpions, coyotes (the real ones as well as the human ones that steal your money and leave you to die. People die in the desert all the time. Adults. How heartless do you have to be to subject your children to that kind of danger?





                                It's the law. Obama MADE IT THE LAW. Trump wants to put up a wall so they can't get into the country in the first place and then they won't have to be separated. They can just turn back.


                                The parents put them in that desperate situation in the first place.

                                And if you go read that article MM posted earlier, complete with photos, you will see that where the children are being held is not a cage, but a comfortable base with beds, food, healthcare, and education and entertainment.



                                Your fake outrage is clear for everyone to see Charles. You don't even know the facts of the situation.

                                One good reason: Their parents are criminals and we don't put children in jail with criminals.


                                The parents have placed their children in a dangerous situation which is irresponsible. They made them part of a crime too.

                                We throw people in jail for leaving their dogs in a car with the window rolled up in the summer time. Yet you think it is perfectly fine for parents to drag their children across hundreds of miles of dangerous terrain with little food and water????
                                I seriously think that your characterisation of the parents fleeing from a nightmarish situation is unworthy, undecent and unhuman. It reminds me a bit of Marie Antoinette's idea that the poor and starving people could just eat cake if they did not have bread to eat. That is how much of a misunderstanding I think it is.

                                I am also seriously wondering if you even understand what Christianity is about. It seems to me that you are rather contradicting Jesus' ideas and ideals than supporting them.
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

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