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Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

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  • #31
    Time for the US to actually act as it has always professed to be.
    "Obama is not a brown-skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You are thinking of Jesus." Episcopal Bishop of Arizona

    I remember WinAce. Gone but not forgotten.

    Comment


    • #32
      Immigration law has always struck me as a "gray area" type of thing, since the US has long implicitly condoned the presence of illegal immigrants under a number of conditions.

      Sarah Huckabee Sanders and Jeff Sessions have defended these actions by appealing to law and order (and even in a religious context). Theologically, a couple of considerations come to mind for why I'm not so hardline on the issue, especially as relates to children who were smuggled into the country at a young age and who did not knowingly break any law. One is the biblical principle of "mercy, not sacrifice", mentioned in Hosea and repeated in Matthew. The other is an analogy from Jesus's teachings on divorce. We know what they were; they were pretty strict. However, Craig Keener and David Instone-Brewer argue that the early church did not interpret this as a call for people who had been improperly divorced to leave their second spouses and break up another family, but to move forward living a godly life. In particular, when Paul gave his instructions on marriage and divorce in 1 Corinthians, a large part of the audience probably would have been divorcees given the high divorce rates in the Roman Empire, but he notably did not command this. Likewise, I think ruining lives by encouraging people even smuggled here as children to self-deport even without ICE forcing the issue (as some TWebbers have suggested) seems akin to unnecessarily divorcing in that scenario.

      When there isn't explicit biblical counsel on an issue, we have to look at relevant principles and make the best decision we can. That is what I have attempted to do.
      Last edited by KingsGambit; 06-14-2018, 09:42 PM.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        When there isn't explicit biblical counsel on an issue
        Eh? I would have said this is one of the two political issues the bible is both explicit and consistent on (the other being helping the poor):

        Leviticus 19:33-34 “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

        Lev 23:35 “If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you."

        Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God...loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing. You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”

        Deuteronomy 27:19 “Cursed be anyone who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow.’

        Exodus 22:21 “You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.”

        Zechariah 7:9-10 “show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor”

        Ezekiel 47:22 “You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the sojourners who reside among you and have had children among you. They shall be to you as native-born children of Israel. With you they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.”

        Isaiah 16:4 – "Let the Moabite fugitives stay with you; be their shelter from the destroyer"

        Jeremiah 7:5-7 “For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow... then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.”

        Mal 3:5 “Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts."

        Matthew 25:35 “For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.”

        Hebrews 13:2 “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.”
        etc.

        The bible is extremely enthusiastic in its pro-immigrant stance (except when it comes to worshiping their gods!). I don't think there's any wiggle-room on this issue when it comes to the clear biblical teachings.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          Eh? I would have said this is one of the two political issues the bible is both explicit and consistent on (the other being helping the poor):

          Leviticus 19:33-34 “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

          Lev 23:35 “If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you."

          Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God...loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing. You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”

          Deuteronomy 27:19 “Cursed be anyone who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow.’

          Exodus 22:21 “You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.”

          Zechariah 7:9-10 “show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor”

          Ezekiel 47:22 “You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the sojourners who reside among you and have had children among you. They shall be to you as native-born children of Israel. With you they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.”

          Isaiah 16:4 – "Let the Moabite fugitives stay with you; be their shelter from the destroyer"

          Jeremiah 7:5-7 “For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow... then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.”

          Mal 3:5 “Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts."

          Matthew 25:35 “For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.”

          Hebrews 13:2 “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.”
          etc.

          The bible is extremely enthusiastic in its pro-immigrant stance (except when it comes to worshiping their gods!). I don't think there's any wiggle-room on this issue when it comes to the clear biblical teachings.
          I don't think these Old Testament cites succeed in establishing an "exact parallel". The Hebrew word used was ger. Nekhar was also available to describe something similar to what would be called "illegal immigrants" in modern day America, but not used.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            I don't think these Old Testament cites succeed in establishing an "exact parallel". The Hebrew word used was ger. Nekhar was also available to describe something similar to what would be called "illegal immigrants" in modern day America, but not used.
            Since the government of those times didn't require immigration applications, I think your idea that there was any concept similar to "illegal immigrants" is misplaced.

            The differences between ger and nekhar seem to be that a ger typically is an immigrant who lives locally and worships the Hebrew God, while a nekhar is a foreigner who is just visiting rather than a local resident and who worships the gods of their own people. I don't think it's plausible to try to draw a 'legal' vs 'illegal' immigrant distinction from those words, but I can see how it could be argued that they justify distinguishing Christian immigrants from non-Christian ones (not that such a policy is likely to be constitutional in the US). I also note that US illegal immigrants are almost all Christian in religion.
            Last edited by Starlight; 06-14-2018, 11:07 PM.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by kiwimac View Post
              Time for the US to actually act as it has always professed to be.
              Do you even have the slightest idea how strict immigration policies were a century ago? You could be put right back on the boat if you had a slight limp.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                Eh? I would have said this is one of the two political issues the bible is both explicit and consistent on (the other being helping the poor):

                Leviticus 19:33-34 “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

                Lev 23:35 “If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you."

                Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God...loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing. You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”

                Deuteronomy 27:19 “Cursed be anyone who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow.’

                Exodus 22:21 “You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.”

                Zechariah 7:9-10 “show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor”

                Ezekiel 47:22 “You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the sojourners who reside among you and have had children among you. They shall be to you as native-born children of Israel. With you they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.”

                Isaiah 16:4 – "Let the Moabite fugitives stay with you; be their shelter from the destroyer"

                Jeremiah 7:5-7 “For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow... then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.”

                Mal 3:5 “Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts."

                Matthew 25:35 “For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.”

                Hebrews 13:2 “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.”
                etc.

                The bible is extremely enthusiastic in its pro-immigrant stance (except when it comes to worshiping their gods!). I don't think there's any wiggle-room on this issue when it comes to the clear biblical teachings.
                A sojourner is a person who temporarily resides somewhere -- not someone who is moving in permanently.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #38
                  Certainly there are no exact parallels between the Pentateuch and today, but that is the very point I was making. The verses are still relevant in the discussion but the contextual differences must be considered.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    A sojourner is a person who temporarily resides somewhere -- not someone who is moving in permanently.
                    I'm just a poor way farin' stranger.... (come on, Rogue, sing it with me!)
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I'm just a poor way farin' stranger.... (come on, Rogue, sing it with me!)
                      You definitely don't want that.



                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I'm just a poor way farin' stranger.... (come on, Rogue, sing it with me!)
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Even Dolly does a decent job....

                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            There's even a Grumpy Old Men version!

                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              There's even a death metal version!


                              It's not actually in that style, but it's on a death metal album.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                ...and one even Zymologist might dig:

                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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