Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[Cow Poke]

I agree that if you call yourself a Christian there are certain policies, laws and actions you cannot support.

Well, thank you for that little bit of obfuscation, but here's what he actually said, and you amen'd.....

The so called Christian Right have no fellow feeling because they are not really Christian at all.

THIS is what I was asking about.

The separation of children from their parents goes against and is contrary to any meaningful interpretation of the words of Jesus. So, yes, I certainly agree that if anyone supports something obviously contrary to Christianity, they are not really Christians.

That's quite a bit of "reigning in" what firstfloor pontificated.

[JimL]

Your avoidance is noted. The issues is you care zero about these kids or families and just simply using them for political advantage because if you cared about them, you wouldn’t make excuses for this happening under Obama. If Clinton was president and carrying on with this tradition, would you even care?

In other words, we don't care so we shouldn't be hypocritical and call you christians out for not caring. For one thing that's bunk, and for another thing, think about the stupidity of the argument you're making. Also, Clinton wouldn't be carrying on with this (what you believe to be tradition), so you don't have to be concerned about whether or not we would care.

[Cow Poke]

In other words, we don't care so we shouldn't be hypocritical and call you christians out for not caring. For one thing that's bunk, and for another thing, think about the stupidity of the argument you're making. Also, Clinton wouldn't be carrying on with this (what you believe to be tradition), so you don't have to be concerned about whether or not we would care.

I care about what happens at the border, and the fact that BOTH sides are playing political football with the lives of small children. And you really don't have any idea what Clinton would do, because she's been all over the map on so many issues, and she'd still have - at least initially - a republican house and senate to deal with.

[JimL]

You are so full of it it's not even funny. That's some of the dumbest logic, if you can call it that... it shouldn't amaze me that you can so easily come to such dumb conclusions.

I agree, Tazz is wrong here. The religious right never did hold a high moral ground so they couldn't have lost it. They just continually expose the farce of their personal faith, that's all.

[Cow Poke]

I agree, Tazz is wrong here. The religious right never did hold a high moral ground so they couldn't have lost it. They just continually expose the farce of their personal faith, that's all.

And, once again, JimL tries to beat Tass at the "hold my beer and watch how freakin stupid I can be" game. I think you're winning, Jim - Tass will need to try harder. And probably more beer.

[Charles]

Your avoidance is noted. The issues is you care zero about these kids or families and just simply using them for political advantage because if you cared about them, you wouldn’t make excuses for this happening under Obama. If Clinton was president and carrying on with this tradition, would you even care?

I could not have asked for a better proof that some of you are ready to do anything to avoid the moral issue. Your post is making the false claim that I have made excuses for this happening under Obama. That is simply untrue. I have no problem saying that separating children from their parants under the conditions we are discussing here is wrong no matter who does it. Very strange to have to point that out. But like I said this all shows that you are so afraid of the moral issue and thus want to discuss anything but that.

[Charles]

Well, thank you for that little bit of obfuscation, but here's what he actually said, and you amen'd.....



THIS is what I was asking about.



That's quite a bit of "reigning in" what firstfloor pontificated.

I am afraid I don't follow you all the way. Firstfloor wrote:

The law is being used as an excuse for extreme bigotry. Where is the humanity?
The so called Christian Right have no fellow feeling because they are not really Christian at all.

I agree that anyone who uses the law as an excuse in these cases lacks humanity and cannot call him/herself a Christian. Rather simple but very true. Those who lack fellow feeling are those making bad excuses for inhuman treatment of children.

[Cow Poke]

I agree that anyone who uses the law as an excuse in these cases lacks humanity and cannot call him/herself a Christian.

That's a bit extreme, but you're entitled to your opinion. On one hand, a Christian is actually defined by whose we are, not how much "humanity" we are thought to have, but I'll allow that, in your opinion, this is the case.

Rather simple but very true.

Unfortunately, there is absolutely nothing simple about the problem at the border. It is because it is such a complex issue that both sides can use it to such imagined advantage.

Those who lack fellow feeling are those making bad excuses for inhuman treatment of children.

This "fellow feeling" thing is new to me - is that the new "brotherly love" thing? And this "inhumane treatment" of children is, in many cases, entirely subjective. Is it "inhumane" NOT to put a child in a holding tank with other violators of the law? Would it be MORE "humane" to keep a child with somebody who may be trafficking in child sex trade?

It's WAY more complex than just announcing "if you believe X, you're not a Christian".

[lilpixieofterror]

I could not have asked for a better proof that some of you are ready to do anything to avoid the moral issue. Your post is making the false claim that I have made excuses for this happening under Obama. That is simply untrue. I have no problem saying that separating children from their parants under the conditions we are discussing here is wrong no matter who does it. Very strange to have to point that out. But like I said this all shows that you are so afraid of the moral issue and thus want to discuss anything but that.

So were you protesting this issue under past presidents or did it only matter now? See Charles I don’t believe you because mass protest didn’t happen under Obama, but only under Trump. This is about political leverage and getting people to react emotionally and not rationally to use these children to push for amnesty and open boarders. You don’t care and only care when it’s politically useful. It’s terrible that you and your side would use others as tools. If this isn’t true than:

Show us examples of you condemning Obama for this practice.

I’ll wait and take back what I said if you do.

[lilpixieofterror]

In other words, we don't care so we shouldn't be hypocritical and call you christians out for not caring.

I never said I didn’t. I find it terrible that your side didn’t say a word until it became something you could use to your advantage.

For one thing that's bunk, and for another thing, think about the stupidity of the argument you're making.

It’s not bunk at all because we have testimonials and photographic proof. Remember those pictures of kids in cages? Those were taken while Obama was president. You didn’t care until 2018.

Also, Clinton wouldn't be carrying on with this (what you believe to be tradition), so you don't have to be concerned about whether or not we would care.

Yeah she would have because that is what her boss had been doing and the MSN wouldn’t care and would still singing about how the second amendment was done for under her new liberal second Supreme Court pick.

[Charles]

So were you protesting this issue under past presidents or did it only matter now? See Charles I don’t believe you because mass protest didn’t happen under Obama, but only under Trump. This is about political leverage and getting people to react emotionally and not rationally to use these children to push for amnesty and open boarders. You don’t care and only care when it’s politically useful. It’s terrible that you and your side would use others as tools. If this isn’t true than:

Show us examples of you condemning Obama for this practice.

I’ll wait and take back what I said if you do.

I like that you insist that this must be about Trump vs. Obama or a question about me or other persons. The moral issue... Well, it seems you don't want to worry about that though it should be the main point for a Christian who cannot just assume that everything is OK if Obama did the same.

That fact that you talk about the use of children seems a little inhuman in and of itself. I have not made statements about whether boarders should be open so again you imply something that is false.

I have already said it is a practice I condemn no matter who did it. What more could you ask for? I did not post in here when Obama was a president. I am not going to spend more time on your this person versus that person game. I will not allow you to derail it even more from the moral issue. You have, however, been very good at showing that you insist on this focus, since the moral focus is one that you cannot really hold any high ground in.

Please tell me why you guys think Jesus is so concerned with what Obama did and how that allows you to take away focus from any moral issue you are confronted with. Because you constantly argue as if that is the case.

[Charles]

That's a bit extreme, but you're entitled to your opinion. On one hand, a Christian is actually defined by whose we are, not how much "humanity" we are thought to have, but I'll allow that, in your opinion, this is the case.



Unfortunately, there is absolutely nothing simple about the problem at the border. It is because it is such a complex issue that both sides can use it to such imagined advantage.



This "fellow feeling" thing is new to me - is that the new "brotherly love" thing? And this "inhumane treatment" of children is, in many cases, entirely subjective. Is it "inhumane" NOT to put a child in a holding tank with other violators of the law? Would it be MORE "humane" to keep a child with somebody who may be trafficking in child sex trade?

It's WAY more complex than just announcing "if you believe X, you're not a Christian".

A person who is eating a hamburger would have a rather big problem claiming he was a vegetarian. That explains my idea that anyone supporting this is not really a Christian. You simple cannot ignore and act contrarty to the idea that you should welcome the stranger, be unto others and the like and then hold that idea that you are a Christian if you "belong" to Christ. You cannot perform or support such evil acts if you are seriously of the opinion that Jesus was right.

You are right certain parts of this is rather complicated and I like the idea that you adress the issue and don't go for the Obama-thing. However, I see no complexity allowing for what can be described as torture to the children. I don't agree that you can point to subjectice ideas about what is human and I fail to see it is what a Christian can hold on to. I fail to see how it could be impossible to treat both the parents and the children well while at the same time take appropriate security meassures and investigating any ideas about trafficing and other serious crimes. The idea that torture is somehow allowed due to the complexity is not an idea that I believe Jesus would by into.

Any parent know it is very simple when it comes to the fact that children are extremely depent on their parents for their well being. To apply as a general rule that you can just separate them in these cases is rather obviously going against Christian ideas and human nature. If you allow yourself to act like that or support it, I don't believe you are a Christian. Know them by their fruits is not supposed to be an empty claim.

[Cow Poke]

A person who is eating a hamburger would have a rather big problem claiming he was a vegetarian. That explains my idea that anyone supporting this is not really a Christian.

No, that dog don't hunt, Charles. We are not Christians based on what we DON'T do.

You simple cannot ignore and act contrarty to the idea that you should welcome the stranger,

If the stranger is illegally entering my home at 2 AM, I'm well within my rights not to be so welcoming.

be unto others and the like and then hold that idea that you are a Christian if you "belong" to Christ. You cannot perform or support such evil acts if you are seriously of the opinion that Jesus was right.

IF the border situation is EXACTLY as you like to believe it is -- but it's not. It's far more complex than you're painting it.

You are right certain parts of this is rather complicated and I like the idea that you adress the issue and don't go for the Obama-thing.

Obama, to me, is SO irrelevant now.

However, I see no complexity allowing for what can be described as torture to the children.

Do you mean "torture", or "what can be described as torture"? They can be vastly different things, particularly to those with an ax to grind.

I don't agree that you can point to subjectice ideas about what is human and I fail to see it is what a Christian can hold on to.

Charles, you have NO CLUE what is actually going on in every case on the border - you only read what you want to read, and believe what you want to believe. The most EXTREME cases make the news, and you, apparently, are gullible enough to believe they are the norm. I don't know that, and you don't either.

I fail to see how it could be impossible to treat both the parents and the children well while at the same time take appropriate security meassures and investigating any ideas about trafficing and other serious crimes.

And how do you know that's NOT the case in the majority of situations?

The idea that torture is somehow allowed due to the complexity is not an idea that I believe Jesus would by into.

You mean, "that which can be described as torture", don't you? Do you also fall for the extremist "children being RIPPED from the arms of their parents?" Come on, Charles, dial down the hysteria a bit.

Any parent know it is very simple when it comes to the fact that children are extremely depent on their parents for their well being.

Yes, millions of parents in the US neglect or abuse their children, which is why we have Child Protective Services.

To apply as a general rule that you can just separate them in these cases is rather obviously going against Christian ideas and human nature.

You have absolutely NO IDEA that's actually what's happening.

If you allow yourself to act like that or support it, I don't believe you are a Christian. Know them by their fruits is not supposed to be an empty claim.

Because we may have a difference of opinion on this very complex issue shows you to be an incredibly shallow and judgmental person to assess my overall Christianity on this ONE ISSUE - where you don't even know exactly what I believe about it.

You're a bigot, Charles, coming to conclusions without sufficient facts. Bigot - a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions - that's what you are.

[Charles]

No, that dog don't hunt, Charles. We are not Christians based on what we DON'T do.



If the stranger is illegally entering my home at 2 AM, I'm well within my rights not to be so welcoming.



IF the border situation is EXACTLY as you like to believe it is -- but it's not. It's far more complex than you're painting it.



Obama, to me, is SO irrelevant now.



Do you mean "torture", or "what can be described as torture"? They can be vastly different things, particularly to those with an ax to grind.



Charles, you have NO CLUE what is actually going on in every case on the border - you only read what you want to read, and believe what you want to believe. The most EXTREME cases make the news, and you, apparently, are gullible enough to believe they are the norm. I don't know that, and you don't either.



And how do you know that's NOT the case in the majority of situations?



You mean, "that which can be described as torture", don't you? Do you also fall for the extremist "children being RIPPED from the arms of their parents?" Come on, Charles, dial down the hysteria a bit.



Yes, millions of parents in the US neglect or abuse their children, which is why we have Child Protective Services.



You have absolutely NO IDEA that's actually what's happening.



Because we may have a difference of opinion on this very complex issue shows you to be an incredibly shallow and judgmental person to assess my overall Christianity on this ONE ISSUE - where you don't even know exactly what I believe about it.

You're a bigot, Charles, coming to conclusions without sufficient facts. Bigot - a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions - that's what you are.

My conclusion that people supporting this are not really Christians in based both on what they do and what they don't do. There are certains actions and ideas you simple cannot support if you want to call yourself a Christian. If "know them by their fruits" is to mean anything we should be allow to say stop when the fruit is rotten. And when support of inhuman policies is what you see, you are free to support the fruit is rotten.

I am not going to go to detail with all your personal attack that i have no idea, only read what I want and so on. If you had good arguments you simply would not need to make these personal attacks. If you want to make the separation seem a human thing based on the possibility of trafficing and misuse I would be very interested en seeing the evidence making it likely that this was what was going on in more than 2000 cases.

My conclusion that some posters in here are only Christian by name is based on their constant lack of regard for the weak, the stranger, the immigrants, the children and their support for those making it even harder for those who find themselves in very diffucult situations. Anyone taking Christianity seriously would thank me for pointing out those guys are acting contrary to the Bible. There are quite many Christians saying that as well and I have quoted more of them so you find the opinion among Christians which is actually no surprise.

[Cow Poke]

My conclusion that people supporting this

Supporting WHAT? Look at the click-bait title that Starlight gave this thread....

Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

I'm certainly opposed to "imprisoning children", but that's not what this is all about. It's a flat out lie, simply designed to evoke emotion, and abandon reason.

You're buying into that!

are not really Christians in based both on what they do and what they don't do. There are certains actions and ideas you simple cannot support if you want to call yourself a Christian.

In your opinion, you mean.

If "know them by their fruits" is to mean anything we should be allow to say stop when the fruit is rotten. And when support of inhuman policies is what you see, you are free to support the fruit is rotten.

And, it's TOTALLY within your wheelhouse to know everything that's going on on the border, and which of those actions are "inhumane"?

I am not going to go to detail with all your personal attack that i have no idea,

It's not a personal attack - it's a statement of fact. You don't know all that's going on down there, and neither do I.

only read what I want and so on. If you had good arguments you simply would not need to make these personal attacks.

Oh, dial down the sensitivity!

If you want to make the separation seem a human thing based on the possibility of trafficing

GREAT example of you not knowing squat - I never said such a thing. There ARE instances of that, but I'm certainly not trying to show that's the "norm".

and misuse I would be very interested en seeing the evidence making it likely that this was what was going on in more than 2000 cases.

You'll have to step back from the twilight zone, and talk to somebody who's actually trying to make that case.

My conclusion that some posters in here

AH!!!! NOW we get a little closer to the truth of the matter... SOME posters.....

are only Christian by name is based on their constant lack of regard for the weak, the stranger, the immigrants, the children and their support for those making it even harder for those who find themselves in very diffucult situations.

And, again, it's sheer bigotry of you to come to that broad conclusion based on responses to this one particular very complex issue.

Anyone taking Christianity seriously would thank me for pointing out those guys are acting contrary to the Bible. There are quite many Christians saying that as well and I have quoted more of them so you find the opinion among Christians which is actually no surprise.

I take Christianity VERY seriously, and I do NOT thank opinionated bigots who attack Christianity in general based on differences of opinion over very complex matters.

I HATE what's going on on the border. What I hate just as much is the fact that BOTH sides seem to be more interested in making it a campaign issue than actually solving the problem. And YOU, sir, are using this issue to justify your bigotry against Christians.