https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huMu8ihDlVA
Originally posted by siam
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My position remains that any person has the right to enter or leave a religion/religio-philosophy regardless of the merits of their justification.
Comparative history---Ok, we can give it a rest.
Perhaps it may clarify our discussion if claims have verifiable facts?
Claims have been made that a) some countries use death sentences. b) That some persons have been legally executed for leaving Islam. c) That these laws have been practiced since 1400 years ago.
a) Death penalty and executions---https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/ACT5079552018ENGLISH.PDF
This is a report by amnesty. It shows the minimum Global figures.
According to Amnesty---China has the highest number of executions and death penalties but it has been excluded from the report because the figures are not verifiable.
"More than half (51%) of all recorded executions were carried out in Iran, which together with Saudi
Arabia, Iraq and Pakistan carried out 84% of the global total. " ---according to the report.
here is a list of executions carried out---
EXECUTIONS RECORDED GLOBALLY IN 2017
Afghanistan (5), Bahrain (3), Bangladesh (6), Belarus (2+), China (+), Egypt (35+), Iran (507+),
Iraq (125+), Japan (4), Jordan (15), Kuwait (7), Malaysia (4+), North Korea (+), Pakistan (60+),
Palestine (State of) (6: Hamas authorities, Gaza), Saudi Arabia (146), Singapore (8), Somalia (24:
Puntland 12, Federal Government of Somalia 12), South Sudan (4), UAE (1), USA (23), Viet Nam (+),
Yemen (2+)
b) Iran has the highest number of executions---reports on these show that the majority were drug related offences or murder charges.
The Iranian penal code of 2012 does NOT have provisions criminalizing apostasy.
According to the U.S. state department---one person was convicted of apostasy in 1990 and executed---however, the charges did not specify apostasy therefore such a claim may or may not be verifiable.....
(we have not explored extra-judicial harassment/killings---some reports say that many Iranian Muslims are converting to the Bahai faith and this is resulting in harassment against the Bahai.)
c) Countries that have apostacy as part of their penal code are:-
Mauritanias 1983 Criminal Code, the United Arab Emirates Penal Code of 1987, Sudans Penal Code of 1991, Yemens Penal Code of 1994, Qatars 2004 Penal Law.
---it may be obvious --- these are all recent laws.
OT/NT---Is not the OT scripture for Christians? Do you not believe that G-d of the OT is the Christian God and that the OT was sent by God/it is God's word? or perhaps you believe, like us Muslims, that the OT has been corrupted?
Quran---4:88
Why should you be divided into 2 parties about the hypocrites? God has cast them off for their deeds. Would you guide those whom God has thrown out of the way? For those whom God has thrown out of the way, never shall you find the way.
4:89
They but wish that you should reject faith as they do and thus be on the same footing, so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them, and take no friends or helpers from their ranks
4:90
except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people....
(Yusuf Ali translation)
As you also explained---There was betrayal by a faction of Muslim soldiers during the battle of Uhud. Some people wanted to execute them others wanted to forgive them. The Quran offers a "middle way"---a third option. The issue here is not apostasy but desertion by a soldier in wartime. Even today, in the West, desertion by a soldier carries penalties including the death penalty. The option the Quran offers is to give the deserters a chance to reconsider. If they move away from "what is forbidden" they can rejoin the community or they choose not to rejoin the community--the options offered are----a) they can move to a neutral territory with which there is a peace treaty, b) they can rejoin the community in peace but refrain from fighting for or against---that is, join as non-combatants. or c) they then become part of the enemy camp.
As a wartime strategy---this sounds reasonable and just to me....?....anything less would have been foolish.
Comparative history---Ok, we can give it a rest.
Perhaps it may clarify our discussion if claims have verifiable facts?
Claims have been made that a) some countries use death sentences. b) That some persons have been legally executed for leaving Islam. c) That these laws have been practiced since 1400 years ago.
a) Death penalty and executions---https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/ACT5079552018ENGLISH.PDF
This is a report by amnesty. It shows the minimum Global figures.
According to Amnesty---China has the highest number of executions and death penalties but it has been excluded from the report because the figures are not verifiable.
"More than half (51%) of all recorded executions were carried out in Iran, which together with Saudi
Arabia, Iraq and Pakistan carried out 84% of the global total. " ---according to the report.
here is a list of executions carried out---
EXECUTIONS RECORDED GLOBALLY IN 2017
Afghanistan (5), Bahrain (3), Bangladesh (6), Belarus (2+), China (+), Egypt (35+), Iran (507+),
Iraq (125+), Japan (4), Jordan (15), Kuwait (7), Malaysia (4+), North Korea (+), Pakistan (60+),
Palestine (State of) (6: Hamas authorities, Gaza), Saudi Arabia (146), Singapore (8), Somalia (24:
Puntland 12, Federal Government of Somalia 12), South Sudan (4), UAE (1), USA (23), Viet Nam (+),
Yemen (2+)
b) Iran has the highest number of executions---reports on these show that the majority were drug related offences or murder charges.
The Iranian penal code of 2012 does NOT have provisions criminalizing apostasy.
According to the U.S. state department---one person was convicted of apostasy in 1990 and executed---however, the charges did not specify apostasy therefore such a claim may or may not be verifiable.....
(we have not explored extra-judicial harassment/killings---some reports say that many Iranian Muslims are converting to the Bahai faith and this is resulting in harassment against the Bahai.)
c) Countries that have apostacy as part of their penal code are:-
Mauritanias 1983 Criminal Code, the United Arab Emirates Penal Code of 1987, Sudans Penal Code of 1991, Yemens Penal Code of 1994, Qatars 2004 Penal Law.
---it may be obvious --- these are all recent laws.
OT/NT---Is not the OT scripture for Christians? Do you not believe that G-d of the OT is the Christian God and that the OT was sent by God/it is God's word? or perhaps you believe, like us Muslims, that the OT has been corrupted?
Quran---4:88
Why should you be divided into 2 parties about the hypocrites? God has cast them off for their deeds. Would you guide those whom God has thrown out of the way? For those whom God has thrown out of the way, never shall you find the way.
4:89
They but wish that you should reject faith as they do and thus be on the same footing, so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them, and take no friends or helpers from their ranks
4:90
except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people....
(Yusuf Ali translation)
As you also explained---There was betrayal by a faction of Muslim soldiers during the battle of Uhud. Some people wanted to execute them others wanted to forgive them. The Quran offers a "middle way"---a third option. The issue here is not apostasy but desertion by a soldier in wartime. Even today, in the West, desertion by a soldier carries penalties including the death penalty. The option the Quran offers is to give the deserters a chance to reconsider. If they move away from "what is forbidden" they can rejoin the community or they choose not to rejoin the community--the options offered are----a) they can move to a neutral territory with which there is a peace treaty, b) they can rejoin the community in peace but refrain from fighting for or against---that is, join as non-combatants. or c) they then become part of the enemy camp.
As a wartime strategy---this sounds reasonable and just to me....?....anything less would have been foolish.
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