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Thread: Ex-Muslims

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    tWebber
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    Ex-Muslims

    I wonder if the biggest threat to Islam is the growing movement of vocal ex-Muslims. Of course there has always been Apostasy in Islam, but in a tribal, primitive context it was easy to annihilate the source of this threat -- just kill the apostate. Now however, with globalization and the corresponding technological tools, these dissenters and defectors are given a voice and the ability to share their story. They are no longer simply an apostate that needs to be murdered -- they are complex human beings that after many years of Islamic allegiance, have now come to view their religion as a falsehood. As they increase in number and prominence, will their influence cause a mass exodus from Islam? Perhaps. Although I have learned that when a religion or ideology is attacked, it only causes the adherent to dig their heels in: "Ah! See! Shaitan is attacking us through these vessels of corruption! This is proving that we are the true religion! Stand strong brothers and sisters! Double down in your devotion and zealousness and prove to these pagans and demons that we will not be deceived! Victory is ours in ALLAH!" I think that will be the initial reaction. However, with the passage of time and the exposure to these apostates and the dissemination of information, these apostates will serve to be a stone in the shoe of devout Muslims. They will inadvertently give permission to devout Muslims to question, to doubt, to think critically; and in time Islam will evolve into a more benign religion on a global scale until most Muslims are Muslim in name, and agnostic in heart.

    What do you think?

    Oh, and here are some resources for Muslims who are interested in listening to and interacting with those they disagree with:

    1) https://www.youtube.com/user/abdullahadam/videos

    2) https://www.theguardian.com/global/2...n-crisis-faith

    3) https://www.amazon.com/Atheist-Musli...atheist+muslim

    PS: I didn't read the entire book in the 3rd link, but from what I did read, it seemed like a captivating testimony.

  2. #2
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Muslims are rarely interested in listening to and interacting with apostates. Why should they be?

    I think your view is largely an exercise in wishful thinking.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Muslims are rarely interested in listening to and interacting with apostates.
    I don't think that is true. There seems to be a growing number of discussions on social media between Muslims and Ex-Muslims.

    Why should they be? I think your view is largely an exercise in wishful thinking.
    I don't think Muslims need to or will sit down and have coffee with every apostate; I do however think that when high-profile Muslims leave the faith, it will cause shock waves throughout the global Muslim community to varying degrees. What happens when the Bart Ehrmans of Islam stand up and speak out? Will there be a growing safety net of visible Ex-Muslims for the doubters to consult and confide in? Those resources seem to be growing, indeed. The following video has some Imam's and apologists alarmed, and pre-emptive mobilization to stem the tide of wide spread apostasy and subsequent modernization is seemingly a real issue facing the Muslim community:


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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    I don't think that is true. There seems to be a growing number of discussions on social media between Muslims and Ex-Muslims.
    "Rare" and "growing number" are not mutually exclusive - and I would hesitate to describe strident denunciation as "interaction."
    I don't think Muslims need to or will sit down and have coffee with every apostate; I do however think that when high-profile Muslims leave the faith, it will cause shock waves throughout the global Muslim community to varying degrees. What happens when the Bart Ehrmans of Islam stand up and speak out? Will there be a growing safety net of visible Ex-Muslims for the doubters to consult and confide in? Those resources seem to be growing, indeed. The following video has some Imam's and apologists alarmed, and pre-emptive mobilization to stem the tide of wide spread apostasy and subsequent modernization is seemingly a real issue facing the Muslim community:

    There are no Bart Ehrmans of Islam. It has been fashionable for centuries now for scholars of Christianity to doubt portions of the Christian scripture. This is decidedly NOT the case for Islam. Textual criticism of the Koran is highly discouraged. And the internet is a veritable haven for fringe groups to interact with each other - and I'd classify ex-Muslims as "fringe" at the moment.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    "Rare" and "growing number" are not mutually exclusive - and I would hesitate to describe strident denunciation as "interaction."

    There are no Bart Ehrmans of Islam. It has been fashionable for centuries now for scholars of Christianity to doubt portions of the Christian scripture. This is decidedly NOT the case for Islam. Textual criticism of the Koran is highly discouraged. And the internet is a veritable haven for fringe groups to interact with each other - and I'd classify ex-Muslims as "fringe" at the moment.
    It's almost like they think something really bad might happen to them.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    It's almost like they think something really bad might happen to them.
    It's not just that. One of the major tenets of Islam is that the Koran is absolutely unchanged from when it was given, and any alteration is false. By definition, a Koran different in any way from what we have now is not actually the Koran, and should be destroyed lest the error be propagated. Why would you want to study an erroneous text?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    I think you're making the mistake of assuming that people think in a strictly logical/linear manner. Several years ago, a certain Christian writer/apologist who was most famous in the 1980s (and may be senile at this point) made some waves by proposing the US nuke Mecca. Apparently there is something in the Koran that promises the safety of Mecca or the Kabaa, and his reasoning was that all Muslims would deconvert upon seeing this proved wrong. Virtually everybody else correctly realized that this would only lead to millions of casual Muslims turning into radical Muslims overnight.
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 06-13-2018 at 07:22 PM.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    "Rare" and "growing number" are not mutually exclusive
    Yes, and as I stated, the growing globalization and dissemination of critical information of Islam and the Quran will trickle down to the faithful and cause disruption and distress for the global Muslim community; especially when high profile, or once zealous and devout Muslims leave the faith. Technological tools will serve to reach a wide audience and critical discussions will continue to take place which will negatively impact certain untenable perspectives of the Quran, and so forth.

    and I would hesitate to describe strident denunciation as "interaction."
    Strident denunciation is one thing, but the effects of apostasy on the Muslim psyche are quite another.

    There are no Bart Ehrmans of Islam. It has been fashionable for centuries now for scholars of Christianity to doubt portions of the Christian scripture. This is decidedly NOT the case for Islam. Textual criticism of the Koran is highly discouraged. And the internet is a veritable haven for fringe groups to interact with each other - and I'd classify ex-Muslims as "fringe" at the moment.
    Are you under the impression that Muslim scholars are unfamiliar and nonvocal about the evidence that there was indeed early variation in Quranic material? Any criticism of Islam and the Quran is highly discouraged by the faithful, sure, but there is a difference between what happens in their world, and what happens in academic and scholarly contexts.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I think you're making the mistake of assuming that people think in a strictly logical/linear manner. Several years ago, a certain Christian writer/apologist who was most famous in the 1980s (and may be senile at this point) made some waves by proposing the US nuke Mecca. Apparently there is something in the Koran that promises the safety of Mecca or the Kabaa, and his reasoning was that all Muslims would deconvert upon seeing this proved wrong. Virtually everybody else correctly realized that this would only lead to millions of casual Muslims turning into radical Muslims overnight.
    Yes, but let's take apostasy in Islam for example. Now, despite the varying voices and perspectives within the global Muslim community, many still fear that relaxing the penalties for apostasy would open the floodgates to modernization and intellectual freedom. Now, do you think such a fear and insular mentality will flourish in the face of globalization and the dissemination of critical information?

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    Yes, but let's take apostasy in Islam for example. Now, despite the varying voices and perspectives within the global Muslim community, many still fear that relaxing the penalties for apostasy would open the floodgates to modernization and intellectual freedom. Now, do you think such a fear and insular mentality will flourish in the face of globalization and the dissemination of critical information?
    Yes. See: the backfire effect.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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