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Thread: Ex-Muslims

  1. #11
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    Are you under the impression that Muslim scholars are unfamiliar and nonvocal about the evidence that there was indeed early variation in Quranic material? Any criticism of Islam and the Quran is highly discouraged by the faithful, sure, but there is a difference between what happens in their world, and what happens in academic and scholarly contexts.
    I am under the impression that Muslim scholars reject early variation in Quranic material out of hand. You seem to envision some sort of dichotomy between "the faithful" and "Muslim scholars" - which AFAICT is nonexistent.
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  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I am under the impression that Muslim scholars reject early variation in Quranic material out of hand.
    Every Muslim scholar, even the moderate, progressive ones (who have not been murdered)?

    You seem to envision some sort of dichotomy between "the faithful" and "Muslim scholars" - which AFAICT is nonexistent.
    No I envision fundamentalist, moderate, and liberal voices in relation to academic study of the Quran. There are some faithful Muslims who go off to Islamic seminary and their conviction that the Quran as a perfectly preserved book from heavenly revelation is challenged by scholars. Are those moderate Muslim scholars faithful? I guess it depends who you ask.

    PS: Please listen to Yasir Qadhi in the video I linked to at 14:11. It is a snippet from a talk he gave recounting his stint studying Islam at Yale. This faithful Muslim goes on to state that certain fundamentalist conceptions of the faith are untenable in light of what he learned in Western academic settings. Interestingly, apparently there were (two) "forward thinking" mentors of his back in Medina who actually encouraged studying at Yale, while the fundamentalists naturally discouraged him. Do you think that the Muslim fundamentalists and their convictions will thrive as globalization and the dissemination of information continues?
    Last edited by Scrawly; 06-15-2018 at 01:26 PM.

  3. #13
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    Every Muslim scholar, even the moderate, progressive ones (who have not been murdered)?
    Those aren't really Muslims. You don't appear to understand Islamic thought very well. Sunnis don't consider Shias Muslims.
    No I envision fundamentalist, moderate, and liberal voices in relation to academic study of the Quran. There are some faithful Muslims who go off to Islamic seminary and their conviction that the Quran as a perfectly preserved book from heavenly revelation is challenged by scholars. Are those moderate Muslim scholars faithful? I guess it depends who you ask.

    PS: Please listen to Yasir Qadhi in the video I linked to at 14:11. It is a snippet from a talk he gave recounting his stint studying Islam at Yale. This faithful Muslim goes on to state that certain fundamentalist conceptions of the faith are untenable in light of what he learned in Western academic settings. Interestingly, apparently there were (two) "forward thinking" mentors of his back in Medina who actually encouraged studying at Yale, while the fundamentalists naturally discouraged him. Do you think that the Muslim fundamentalists and their convictions will thrive as globalization and the dissemination of information continues?
    Islamic seminary is sort of a contradiction in terms. There is no such thing as ordination in Islam; imams are laymen. Yale is not a Muslim school.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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  4. #14
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Those aren't really Muslims. You don't appear to understand Islamic thought very well. Sunnis don't consider Shias Muslims.
    I don't think that they regard them as being kafir but rather as heretics.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  5. #15
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    I don't think that they regard them as being kafir but rather as heretics.
    They're more than willing to kill them, just the same.
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  6. #16
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    They're more than willing to kill them, just the same.
    But nevertheless they still consider them Muslims even if they regard them as heretics. Muslims tend to shy away from calling another Muslim an infidel. IIRC there's something in the various Hadiths that expressly condemns it.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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  7. #17
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Those aren't really Muslims.
    I don't think you can make that determination. There is a sliding scale of views and interpretations within the global Muslim community. Of course there are fundamentals that Muslims adhere to that make a Muslim a Muslim, but precisely how those fundamentals are nuanced and interpreted is a sliding scale, indeed.

    You don't appear to understand Islamic thought very well.
    I understand that Islamic thought is not monolithic. I understand that all Muslims revere the Quran as revelation, but how that is defined and the approaches to the interpretation therein are diverse, nuanced, and multifaceted, indeed.

    Sunnis don't consider Shias Muslims.
    ALL Sunnis don't consider ALL Shias Muslims? You know this how exactly?

    Islamic seminary is sort of a contradiction in terms. There is no such thing as ordination in Islam; imams are laymen. Yale is not a Muslim school.
    There is such a thing as the academic study of the Quran though. And globalization is leading to collaborative efforts between Muslims and non-Muslim academics that foster Quranic scholarship, which can challenge traditional Muslim views. Some Muslims are interested in appropriating this critical scholarship and remain pious, others will become apostate -- and those can be the harbingers that force the wider Muslim community to wrestle with such challenges. A parallel can be seen in the attitude of the religious Jewish community when biblical criticism started making inroads. Not very favorable. Now however those attitudes have shifted considerably for the most part where biblical criticism is accommodated into modern Jewish religious thought.

  8. #18
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    I wonder if the biggest threat to Islam is the growing movement of vocal ex-Muslims. Of course there has always been Apostasy in Islam, but in a tribal, primitive context it was easy to annihilate the source of this threat -- just kill the apostate. Now however, with globalization and the corresponding technological tools, these dissenters and defectors are given a voice and the ability to share their story. They are no longer simply an apostate that needs to be murdered -- they are complex human beings that after many years of Islamic allegiance, have now come to view their religion as a falsehood. As they increase in number and prominence, will their influence cause a mass exodus from Islam? Perhaps. Although I have learned that when a religion or ideology is attacked, it only causes the adherent to dig their heels in: "Ah! See! Shaitan is attacking us through these vessels of corruption! This is proving that we are the true religion! Stand strong brothers and sisters! Double down in your devotion and zealousness and prove to these pagans and demons that we will not be deceived! Victory is ours in ALLAH!" I think that will be the initial reaction. However, with the passage of time and the exposure to these apostates and the dissemination of information, these apostates will serve to be a stone in the shoe of devout Muslims. They will inadvertently give permission to devout Muslims to question, to doubt, to think critically; and in time Islam will evolve into a more benign religion on a global scale until most Muslims are Muslim in name, and agnostic in heart.

    What do you think?

    Oh, and here are some resources for Muslims who are interested in listening to and interacting with those they disagree with:

    1) https://www.youtube.com/user/abdullahadam/videos

    2) https://www.theguardian.com/global/2...n-crisis-faith

    3) https://www.amazon.com/Atheist-Musli...atheist+muslim

    PS: I didn't read the entire book in the 3rd link, but from what I did read, it seemed like a captivating testimony.
    Thanks for bringing up this topic...I had been pondering on this issue too...

    1) Islam as false---Historically, Islam "grew up" as a minority religion...that is, it began with few followers...mostly family of the Prophet (pbuh) and spread among the "disenfranchised". Later, during the territorial expansions...it was still a minority religion among a vast population of other belief systems. Today it is the 2nd largest (Christianity being the largest). It seems to me, that the quality of a belief system...rather than the quantity of the believers would be a better criteria for determining the strength/validity of a faith?
    2)globalization and technology---Historically, the geographical region in which "Islam" was popular/influential was large. The advent of "Islamic period" was also a time when global trade flourished because of the use of trade winds and (relative) peace on the silk road trade routes...information and exchange of ideas flourished because of the mass production of paper and books which also led to advances in technology (hydro-power) and sciences. So what we today view as the hallmarks of "modernity" are aspects that the "Islamic period" has already been through?
    3) ex-Muslims---Question, doubt, think critically---should be a duty and a responsibility of every believer and not just the prerogative of the non-believer. The quality of a religion (values, principles, ethics) depends on a deep engagement with it and frequent acquisition of knowledge---this requires the asking of questions and deep, critical thinking. Some Muslims who are engaged with Islam at a superficial or shallow level might be happier leaving and I would encourage it.

    So what might be the biggest threat?...IMO, its the "Islam for dummies" type of shallow engagement with belief systems---such ignorance leads to abuse and ISIS is a good example of an extreme case. ---but the various varieties of "Purists" (fundamentalists) are also examples....?...
    why?----because when "religion" is reduced to its most shallow function---that of an identity-marker...it becomes a tool for division not unity---and abuse of divisions can lead to hate rather than brotherhood.

  9. Amen Scrawly amen'd this post.
  10. #19
    tWebber
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  11. Amen Scrawly amen'd this post.
  12. #20
    tWebber
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    Thanks Siam. I can't comment on your first two points, but I can agree with your third and final point(s).

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