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Thread: Ex-Muslims

  1. #21
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    As a Muslim listening to the opinions of ex-Muslim such as Abdel-Samad, I find his excuses interesting but also amusing....

    For example, he says that because the Prophet waged war, he is not/cannot be a role model...yet most of our historical heroes waged war---such as Alexander "the great", George Washington, Winston Churchill...to name a few....
    in fact....if I remember correctly, President Bush approval ratings soared when he waged war....

    another excuse is that he had many wives. Today, with divorce rates high and increasing life-span, marrying multiple times is not unusual. Rather than focus on the number of marriages, a look at the quality of the marriage may be of more value?
    as to polygyny and monogamy these are not universal but are cultural values which should be determined by the people of that culture? A norm accepted by one culture may not be applicable or acceptable by another culture....?....

    age of marriage is another point he brings up. Today many countries have a "legal" age of consent ranging from 15 to 22 for marriage and earlier with parental consent. In the future it may change...perhaps we might look back and think that the age range from 15 to 22 is like marrying off children....?....according to some data, life expectancy in the 1700 was around 50 years but today it is about 80....maybe in the future it may increase further...?....our criteria/ perception for who is "young", "mature", "old", may also change....

    Abdel-Samad also brings up taxes and slaves--which might be better understood as exploitation...and yet our modern capitalist economic system is based on the model of exploitation---where there are winners and losers...large scale exploitation such as colonialism and slavery or more moderate exploitation where the "owners" get a large share of profits and the workers are left with the rest.

    As a Muslim, it seems to me the advice the Quran gives for international relations, marriage relations and economic models are very relevant today because these are based in a fundamental principle of win-win rather than win-lose. It is based on the principle of Equality---that all human beings are of equivalent worth.

  2. #22
    tWebber
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    Since this is a thread on Ex-muslims, it is good to consider seriously the fantastic phenomenon of many orthodox muslims, shias and other muslims quitting islam for other systems of beliefs – or non-beliefs even. Islam is very intolerant of its apostates and those who turn their backs and/or disavow/disown islam, even hands out severe and capital punishments through its sharia law penalties on those ‘criminals’ who choose not to be muslims any more! Irregardless if they were born muslims or converted to it.

    Being from a muslim majority part of the world, I know the above to be true, especially in muslim (or muslim majority) states of Brunei, Malaysia and Indonesia. This is even worse in Pakistan, Bangladesh Iran and the middle eastern Islamic states. They simply and practically have no freedom of choice, thought or religion, as we know it in the universal sense.

    It is a fascinating trend simply because in spite of all the criminalising by sharia/Islamic laws on the acts of abandoning islam, many muslims still do quit and leave islam, openly or discretely and they are making their choices heard and known publically.. This means for these insiders of islam, who know all its “ins and outs” quite thoroughly, this religion or ideology is meaningless and cuts no ice for them, any more!

    Here is the link to Abdullah Sameer’s V-Blog. He himself is a proud ex-muslim who got disillusioned, unconvinced and ‘sick’ of islam that he abandoned islam for atheism, for good.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=998BYtflacs

    And Abdullah Sameer interviews other ex-muslims from Arabia, the middle-east etc:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghX9vTnnleQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfH_lWtMJgY

    How a white covert to islam abandoned it, upon closer investigation:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK-DT6XNHnQ

    It is rather amazing how muslims are coming out openly to say they don't want to follow it any more, with sound intellectual and factual reasons. Some muslims will say that it is their God that made them apostasize and quit islam. That would be laughable too!

  3. #23
    tWebber
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    Having shared the links above of the ex-muslims testimonies, I by no means wish to promote 'atheism' or agnosticism. I am merely highlighting the phenomenon of muslims quitting and disavowing their former religion boldly and with sound reasons.

  4. #24
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    From what I have heard---many Muslim youth in war torn areas such as Syria, Iraq, Af-pak ...etc are questioning if there is a God because of the atrocities and crimes against humanity they have experienced. Turning to atheism/agnosticism may not simply be about "sound intellectual and factual reason" but a necessary means of making sense of their world and of retaining mental sanity?
    This may not be unusual...A book I read a long time ago claimed that many Jews lost their faith in God in the Nazi concentration camps.....

    As to other "reasons"/justifications....Human beings are intellectually creative and can come up with multiple justifications for their actions...for example, the French called their colonialism a "mission to civilize", and before that, Spain "mission to Christianize the new world".....https://www.nps.gov/articles/signifi...f-missions.htm

    "In the papal bull of 1508, Universalis Ecclesiae (Of the Universal Church), Pope Julius II declared that the king of Spain would be the head of the Church in Spain and its empire. Such an empowerment clearly meant that along with Spanish law, governance, language, and culture, the Roman Catholic religion, too, would cross from Europe to the Americas and that the king of Spain would engage in the spread of Christianity to the native peoples of the New World. His charge would be to establish missions throughout the Western Hemisphere and, later, the Philippines. Thus began the history of the missions that across time would become a part of our national story and influence our shared common history with Spain, Mexico and Latin America."

    Recently ISIS also wanted to have --what the West calls a "Caliphate" or what it calls "the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant".

    What all these have in common is the use of institutional apparatus and social systems to "oppress" --- that is, to take choice away from the individual/collective human. Anytime ideas/religio-philosophies/politics/systems become tools of abuse of power---they are no longer useful to humanity and must be re-evaluated or discarded. In such context--to struggle against oppression becomes an act of jihad and this is the path that the Prophet (pbuh) took in his lifetime also. The pre-Islamic systems were unjust and oppressive and he was an "unbeliever" of their ways...just as Prophet Abraham (pbuh) was an unbeliever of the ways of his tribe.

    ....then there are "reasons"---which I will refer to as justifications for the sake of convenience---such as the excuse that the Quran uses stories---ex - Dul-Qurnain---therefore he left this religion.

    Verse 5:48 of the Quran explains---
    Sahih International: And We have revealed to you, [O Muúammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

    The (divine) purpose of diversity is so that we can become more compassionate, merciful human beings...therefore whatever category of "reason" one chooses from the frivolous and convenient to the serious and spiritual, we need to have good conversations with each other. Perhaps such conversations will show us our own selves and our flaws so that we may reflect on them.

  5. #25
    tWebber
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    Not really Siam, how disingenuous and pathetic of you to attempt to locate the cause of the ex-Muslims like Abdullah Sameer and the other ‘apostates’ he interviewed in some weakness within themselves. If you had really reviewed the YouTube video clips he posted in the links I gave, you will learn that the problems and issues they all had with islam were not due to some internal struggle in their psyche.

    Rather, the overwhelming majority of these ex-muslims found major problems and issues in sources that are external to themselves – in the fundamentals of islam. They discovered the factual errors, glaring contradictions, historical inconsistencies, theological & scientific fallacies etc in the Quran, sunna and other fundamental foundations of islam like sharia law. The issues of Muhammad’s life & character raised serious questions that these ex-muslims were not afraid to ask and investigate critically, the fact that they were unafraid to doubt your ‘prophet’s’ validity and credibility revealed to them that he was nothing more than a sham, a religious and political opportunist who for the most part abused his position and power with others.

    You miss the point I made. These ex-muslim ‘apostates’ rejected and abandoned islam were also faithful devotees of it, even committed to spread and propagandize it to others. They knew the religion very well through study and propogation/dawah. Most of them fled to the west to have their freedom to reject and disavow islam! Obviously, they had no freedom of choice, thought and religion back home in their muslim-majority countries, because islam does not have, nor respect the freedom to reject, quit & abandon islam, it has no real freedom of religion.

    The fact that there are growing numbers of ex-muslims or ‘apostates/murtaddin’ as islam’s sharia law labels them, is significant and phenomenal. Because in many cases, these ex-muslims would be punished by the death sentence for renouncing` and quitting islam. This originates from orthodox Islamic sources of authority: “ Allah’s messenger (Muhd) said “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” Hadith, Bukhari, vol.9 # 58. And “the blood of the muslim..cannot be shed except…(in the case of) the one who reverts from islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims; Hadith, Bukhari, vol.9, Bk.83, #17. These are among the fundamental, orthodox sunni sources that undergird the capital punishment by DEATH for any muslim quitting islam.

    By the way, Christianity has no such equivalent capital punishment for the sin, or ‘crime of apostasy’ - a capital for leaving the faith as islam does.

    In SPITE of such capital punishments and death penalties for leaving islam, these ex-muslims like Abdullah Sameer and those he interviewed have gladly and happily broadcasted their rejection & disavowal of islam openly and “in broad daylight”. This is a Very GOOD sign indeed.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=998BYtflacs

    And Abdullah Sameer interviews other ex-muslims from Arabia, the middle-east etc:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghX9vTnnleQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfH_lWtMJgY

    How a white covert to islam abandoned it, upon closer investigation:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK-DT6XNHnQ

    This is Very good for the freedom of thought, choice and religious freedom among the Muslims. It underscores the fact that their decisions were not made out of fear, confusion and/or internal emotional dysfunctionality of any kind. But rather a bold and brave resolve born from a deliberate, thoughtful and intelligent choice to tell the world why islam should not be followed, nor believed in, by growing numbers of thousands of ex-muslims who have found a way out from an oppressive and tyrannical religious ideology.

    It was one of your sheikhs, the Egyptian cleric/ulama Qaradawi himself who openly admitted in 2011 that the apostasy law of islam ‘ensured the survival and preservation of islam in the world from the beginning, until today’!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huMu8ihDlVA

    Your religion only survived because it legislates faith and belief of its followers. By criminalizing & penalizing apostasy, islam is nothing more than tyrannical bondage upon the human race! No wonder in this 21st century you see more and more muslims who are turning away from islam, despite all the punishments islam and sharia metes and threatens out upon them. May their Tribe increase, for the greater good of humanity and freedom of conscience!











    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    From what I have heard---many Muslim youth in war torn areas such as Syria, Iraq, Af-pak ...etc are questioning if there is a God because of the atrocities and crimes against humanity they have experienced. Turning to atheism/agnosticism may not simply be about "sound intellectual and factual reason" but a necessary means of making sense of their world and of retaining mental sanity?
    This may not be unusual...A book I read a long time ago claimed that many Jews lost their faith in God in the Nazi concentration camps.....

    As to other "reasons"/justifications....Human beings are intellectually creative and can come up with multiple justifications for their actions...for example, the French called their colonialism a "mission to civilize", and before that, Spain "mission to Christianize the new world".....https://www.nps.gov/articles/signifi...f-missions.htm

    "In the papal bull of 1508, Universalis Ecclesiae (Of the Universal Church), Pope Julius II declared that the king of Spain would be the head of the Church in Spain and its empire. Such an empowerment clearly meant that along with Spanish law, governance, language, and culture, the Roman Catholic religion, too, would cross from Europe to the Americas and that the king of Spain would engage in the spread of Christianity to the native peoples of the New World. His charge would be to establish missions throughout the Western Hemisphere and, later, the Philippines. Thus began the history of the missions that across time would become a part of our national story and influence our shared common history with Spain, Mexico and Latin America."

    Recently ISIS also wanted to have --what the West calls a "Caliphate" or what it calls "the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant".

    What all these have in common is the use of institutional apparatus and social systems to "oppress" --- that is, to take choice away from the individual/collective human. Anytime ideas/religio-philosophies/politics/systems become tools of abuse of power---they are no longer useful to humanity and must be re-evaluated or discarded. In such context--to struggle against oppression becomes an act of jihad and this is the path that the Prophet (pbuh) took in his lifetime also. The pre-Islamic systems were unjust and oppressive and he was an "unbeliever" of their ways...just as Prophet Abraham (pbuh) was an unbeliever of the ways of his tribe.

    ....then there are "reasons"---which I will refer to as justifications for the sake of convenience---such as the excuse that the Quran uses stories---ex - Dul-Qurnain---therefore he left this religion.

    Verse 5:48 of the Quran explains---
    Sahih International: And We have revealed to you, [O Muúammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

    The (divine) purpose of diversity is so that we can become more compassionate, merciful human beings...therefore whatever category of "reason" one chooses from the frivolous and convenient to the serious and spiritual, we need to have good conversations with each other. Perhaps such conversations will show us our own selves and our flaws so that we may reflect on them.

  6. #26
    tWebber
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    Video of Sameer----at about 3:30 min he says Quran uses Jewish stories
    3:40 min he says Quran has story of Dul-Qurnain
    4:40 min he complains of the description of the sky he hears about
    5:00 min he complains about the orbits of the sun and moon mentioned in the Quran
    Those seem to be the reasons he is claiming to have left Islam---at least in this video. Would you say that because your scripture---the OT uses stories....it is a serious enough issue to cause one to leave Christianity? or that because the Hebrew and Koine Greek of these scriptures may use descriptions of things, events, phenomenon, in a way that would be understood 3,000 to 2,000 years ago, this means that Christianity is false? Certainly to the person using these justifications---such reasons may be valid.....and they are free to claim so.
    To convert to or to leave a religion for the sake of convenience is a valid choice.
    To me, the use of stories in a scripture is not enough of a reason to leave a religion....and that is an opinion I am free to hold? I might even argue that using stories is the best way to impart knowledge and/or wisdom and "universal truths".
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...r-storytelling

    The videos of ex-muslims that I have seen have not been persuasive nor thought provoking...some of their excuses seem amusing.

    You wrote "By the way, Christianity has no such equivalent capital punishment for the sin, or "crime of apostasy"....obviously Christianity is not Islam therefore the laws of each would be different. Have you heard of "heresy" and its history? for example, when the Church of England was formed---the laws of heresy and treason were used on uncooperative Christians....
    https://catholicherald.co.uk/issues/...h-reformation/

    here is a description of the punishment---
    "The punishment for high treason was hanging, drawing, and quartering...The victim was drawn (dragged) to the place of execution on a hurdle or sledge. There he was hanged (slowly strangled), and while alive his genitals were cut off, his abdomen was sliced open, his bowels were pulled out, and they were burned in front of him. Once dead, he was cut down, beheaded, sliced into quarters, and a section sent to each of the four corners of the kingdom for public display. For a woman, the punishment was burning and quartering."
    You might want to read up on the number of people killed during the "spiritual leadership" of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer.

  7. #27
    tWebber
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    This is a thread about ex-muslims, not heretical ie ex-christians. Take your complaint about that to the proper forum and its proper thread.

    I am aware about Cranmer etc, but we are discussing apostasy in islam, not Christianity.

    Your dismissive comments about the 'amusing excuses' are shameful and arrogant. You indirectly would like to 'wish them away' and their journey exiting out of islam not be told.

    Again, you miss the point that the injunction and commands to capital punish the apostate from Islam, comes from the sunnah, Quran and muhammad himself, and then institutionalized into islsmic sharia laws. The big difference is there is no such institutionalized penal codes from the Gospel, Jesus Christ or the New Testament. People who came later decided to create such unbiblical legislations by themselves.

    Yet legal injunctions to prevent muslims from rejecting & quitting islam are deeply embedded in your source documents of the koran, hadith, sunnah and sirah of yr so-called prophet muhd. Surah 4:88-89, Bukhari hadith etc all enshrine detailed penalties and capital punishments to befall on any ex-muslims.

    Amusing does not even come close to the real reasons how and why the ex-muslims decided to go against 1400 years of sharia legislation against apostasy from islam & to stick their necks out and abandon islam, even publicly these past 10 years.

    Nevertheless I won't be at all surprised when you continue dissing / dismissing these genuine ex-muslims testimonies as amusing or laughable. But putting them down won't get you far.

    There are also many more examples of intelligent muslims who have turned away from islam, like Dr.Lamin Sanneh from Yale, Dr.Nabeel Qureshi, Sam Solomon and others. They did so after a thorough investigation of islam, the Quran and the life of Muhd. Nothing amusing there at all but only a clear vindication of the validity of these ex-muslims to critically question and leave their former religion islam.

    Tragically if they were to return to their original muslim countries today, their freedom of movement would be severely restricted, coupled with severe threats of arrests and sharia capital punishments (death etc).

    That's why they move over to the West, where they have the freedom away from islamic sharia to choose to disavow islam and follow Christianity.

  8. #28
    tWebber
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    Note also, that these ex-muslims did not quit & disavow islam out "of convenience", like you insinuate. Not AT ALL! They did so for the sake of their consciences. Also at the risk of being arrested by the sharia police, imprisoned, rehabilitated, beaten, poisoned disowned by their families and ummah / muslim societies, and/or ultimately beheaded. They risk all the above because they cannot with a clear conscience follow islam as a reasonable or compassionate religion any longer! There's nothing amusing at all about taking any and all of the above risks threatening them from the quran, sunnah, sharia and the whole islamic socio-religious apparatus that has existed for 1400 years, down to this day.

  9. #29
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    The Quilliam foundation in UK organised a public forum to discuss apostasy in islam. Take a look at how some muslims defended it by defining it more islamically:-

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PlCazztehbI

    Most of us probably never heard directly from an ex-muslim, so here's your chance.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    This is a thread about ex-muslims, not heretical ie ex-christians. Take your complaint about that to the proper forum and its proper thread.

    I am aware about Cranmer etc, but we are discussing apostasy in islam, not Christianity.

    Your dismissive comments about the 'amusing excuses' are shameful and arrogant. You indirectly would like to 'wish them away' and their journey exiting out of islam not be told.

    Again, you miss the point that the injunction and commands to capital punish the apostate from Islam, comes from the sunnah, Quran and muhammad himself, and then institutionalized into islsmic sharia laws. The big difference is there is no such institutionalized penal codes from the Gospel, Jesus Christ or the New Testament. People who came later decided to create such unbiblical legislations by themselves.

    Yet legal injunctions to prevent muslims from rejecting & quitting islam are deeply embedded in your source documents of the koran, hadith, sunnah and sirah of yr so-called prophet muhd. Surah 4:88-89, Bukhari hadith etc all enshrine detailed penalties and capital punishments to befall on any ex-muslims.

    Amusing does not even come close to the real reasons how and why the ex-muslims decided to go against 1400 years of sharia legislation against apostasy from islam & to stick their necks out and abandon islam, even publicly these past 10 years.

    Nevertheless I won't be at all surprised when you continue dissing / dismissing these genuine ex-muslims testimonies as amusing or laughable. But putting them down won't get you far.

    There are also many more examples of intelligent muslims who have turned away from islam, like Dr.Lamin Sanneh from Yale, Dr.Nabeel Qureshi, Sam Solomon and others. They did so after a thorough investigation of islam, the Quran and the life of Muhd. Nothing amusing there at all but only a clear vindication of the validity of these ex-muslims to critically question and leave their former religion islam.

    Tragically if they were to return to their original muslim countries today, their freedom of movement would be severely restricted, coupled with severe threats of arrests and sharia capital punishments (death etc).

    That's why they move over to the West, where they have the freedom away from islamic sharia to choose to disavow islam and follow Christianity.

    I only brought out Christian history because of your claims about Christianity.

    Claims about "apostacy" are incorrect insofar as pre-colonial laws are concerned. As to Christian laws, canon laws did exist---and in territories under a Muslim law/Sharia---Christians were allowed to follow their religious laws (Legal Pluralism).

    "The Catholic Church has the oldest continuously functioning legal system in the West,[4] much later than Roman law but predating the evolution of modern European civil law traditions. What began with rules ("canons") adopted by the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem in the first century has developed into a highly complex legal system encapsulating not just norms of the New Testament, but some elements of the Hebrew (Old Testament), Roman, Visigothic, Saxon, and Celtic legal traditions. As many as 36 collections of canon law are known to have been brought into existence before 1150"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_...atholic_Church

    As a Muslim, I do not believe a person must be subjected to a test determining the seriousness of their justification to leave Islam or any other religio-philosophy. Even the most shallow excuse is still a valid excuse to leave or join.

    All kinds of people leave or join religions---and there are many intelligent people who have joined/converted to Islam.

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