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  • #61
    These “claims” against apostasy of come from islam and are confirmed / affirmed overwhelmingly by Islamic scholars themselves. Al-Qaradawi affirmed that it was the Islamic apostasy laws enforced by sharia penal codes that preserved islam and ensured the survival of islam – from the earliest civil wars within islam and among muslims themselves – the Ridda wars. Just after Muhamed died, thousands of the muslim converts chose to abandon and leave islam. They were prevented from leaving islam and fought against by violent warfare by the caliph.
    Both the Koran, hadith, sunnah of Muhd all confirm this prevention of apostasy laws.
    And here’s where the Egyptian radical muslim ulama/cleric/”scholar”, al-Qaradawi publicly declares this in televised interview on Arab TV stations:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huMu8ihDlVA

    Here is a recognized authority on Islam, in the orthodox sunni Muslim world, unlike you. So his words are much more influential and authoritative than say, yours siam. Since his words carry much more weight with muslims everywhere hence I will take your views (here on TW) about apostasy and apostasy laws, with only half a pinch of salt compared to qaradawi’s.

    Qaradawi declared that Islam’s apostasy laws, preventing freedom of religion for Muslims, are absolutely necessary since the beginning of islam 1400 years ago right down until today. This is the practice in all muslim societies, especially with sharia laws in place.


    Obviously, your personal "position" that people 'have the right' to join or leave a religion, is totally UNISLAMIC. So you are an aberrant muslim with regard to real, authentic, orthodox islam. If that is your stance, I cannot consider you an orthodox or sunni muslim, unless you are simply being duplicitous.


    Originally posted by siam View Post
    My position remains that any person has the right to enter or leave a religion/religio-philosophy regardless of the merits of their justification.

    Comparative history---Ok, we can give it a rest.
    Perhaps it may clarify our discussion if claims have verifiable facts?
    Claims have been made that a) some countries use death sentences. b) That some persons have been legally executed for leaving Islam. c) That these laws have been practiced since 1400 years ago.

    a) Death penalty and executions---https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/ACT5079552018ENGLISH.PDF
    This is a report by amnesty. It shows the minimum Global figures.
    According to Amnesty---China has the highest number of executions and death penalties but it has been excluded from the report because the figures are not verifiable.
    "More than half (51%) of all recorded executions were carried out in Iran, which together with Saudi
    Arabia, Iraq and Pakistan carried out 84% of the global total. " ---according to the report.

    here is a list of executions carried out---
    EXECUTIONS RECORDED GLOBALLY IN 2017
    Afghanistan (5), Bahrain (3), Bangladesh (6), Belarus (2+), China (+), Egypt (35+), Iran (507+),
    Iraq (125+), Japan (4), Jordan (15), Kuwait (7), Malaysia (4+), North Korea (+), Pakistan (60+),
    Palestine (State of) (6: Hamas authorities, Gaza), Saudi Arabia (146), Singapore (8), Somalia (24:
    Puntland 12, Federal Government of Somalia 12), South Sudan (4), UAE (1), USA (23), Viet Nam (+),
    Yemen (2+)

    b) Iran has the highest number of executions---reports on these show that the majority were drug related offences or murder charges.
    The Iranian penal code of 2012 does NOT have provisions criminalizing apostasy.
    According to the U.S. state department---one person was convicted of apostasy in 1990 and executed---however, the charges did not specify apostasy therefore such a claim may or may not be verifiable.....
    (we have not explored extra-judicial harassment/killings---some reports say that many Iranian Muslims are converting to the Bahai faith and this is resulting in harassment against the Bahai.)

    c) Countries that have apostacy as part of their penal code are:-
    MauritaniaÂ’s 1983 Criminal Code, the United Arab EmiratesÂ’ Penal Code of 1987, SudanÂ’s Penal Code of 1991, YemenÂ’s Penal Code of 1994, QatarÂ’s 2004 Penal Law.
    ---it may be obvious --- these are all recent laws.

    OT/NT---Is not the OT scripture for Christians? Do you not believe that G-d of the OT is the Christian God and that the OT was sent by God/it is God's word? or perhaps you believe, like us Muslims, that the OT has been corrupted?

    Quran---4:88
    Why should you be divided into 2 parties about the hypocrites? God has cast them off for their deeds. Would you guide those whom God has thrown out of the way? For those whom God has thrown out of the way, never shall you find the way.
    4:89
    They but wish that you should reject faith as they do and thus be on the same footing, so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them, and take no friends or helpers from their ranks
    4:90
    except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people....
    (Yusuf Ali translation)

    As you also explained---There was betrayal by a faction of Muslim soldiers during the battle of Uhud. Some people wanted to execute them others wanted to forgive them. The Quran offers a "middle way"---a third option. The issue here is not apostasy but desertion by a soldier in wartime. Even today, in the West, desertion by a soldier carries penalties including the death penalty. The option the Quran offers is to give the deserters a chance to reconsider. If they move away from "what is forbidden" they can rejoin the community or they choose not to rejoin the community--the options offered are----a) they can move to a neutral territory with which there is a peace treaty, b) they can rejoin the community in peace but refrain from fighting for or against---that is, join as non-combatants. or c) they then become part of the enemy camp.
    As a wartime strategy---this sounds reasonable and just to me....?....anything less would have been foolish.

    Comment


    • #62
      (1) Sura 4 was revealed in Medina over a period of three years (AD 625-627). At this point some Muslims have not immigrated to Medina when the invitation had been given. A group of them, called the hypocrites, had EMBRACED Islam with reservations. Sometimes they supported Muhammad from a geographical and religious distance, for example in saying prayers the Muslim way. At other times, they seemed to help the enemies of Islam (see Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Quran, vol. 1, pp. 361-62, notes 116-117).

      In Sura 4:88-89 Allah tells the prophet how to deal with these particular hypocrites.

      4:88-89
      88: Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom ALLAH HAS MADE TO GO ASTRAY? And he whom ALLAH HAS MADE TO GO ASTRAY, you will never find for him any way (of guidance)

      89: They wish that you REJECT (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So, take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and KILL[q-t-l] THEM wherever you find them . . . . (Al-Hilali and Khan, parenthetical insertions are theirs; mine in brackets)

      We should note two facts from these verses. First, Allah himself made the hypocrites go astray, yet he orders them killed. Second, the Arabic verb qatala is used (root is q-t-l), and this word means exclusively to fight, kill, war, battle, or slaughter.
      You claim that these ayats are only ‘about desertion’, but that is not true. It actually confirms the fact of APOSTASY (Rejection) from believing in islam more than desertion in warfare.

      An-nisaak 4:88 says “Do you want to guide him whom ALLAH HAS MADE TO GO ASTRAY? And he whom ALLAH HAS MADE TO GO ASTRAY, you will never find for him any way (of guidance)..”

      The words used here are about GUIDANCE, not about fighting in a battle. Guidance is about believing in islam and muhammed.

      If they merely ‘deserted’ it must be your Allah who caused their desertions then! He caused them to go and fight against himself, islam, muhd and then he kills them – these deserters!


      What a RIDICULOUS Allah these ayats from sura an nisaak reveal. And yours too. Not just ridiculously nonsensical and unjust, but viciously cruel and violent too. He causes their ‘desertion’, then kills them for it!

      It says – ‘Whom Allah has made to go astray..’ not ‘made them to desert in warfare’. It is about deserting islam as a belief and religion – apostasy, disbelieving islam & ceasing from following its rules.

      Any way by conflating guidance with ‘desertion, in warfare’ you siam confirm that the state, military and religious affiliation are all fused together for muslims, since day one of islam’s invention – 1400 years ago.

      This is ALSO taught in the quran from sura 4:88-89 & 90 and surah 9: 73-74, 123 and also the Hadith Bukhari. (DO YOU DENY THESE Hadiths??)
      “ AllahÂ’s messenger (Muhd) said “Whoever CHANGED his Islamic religion, then KILL HIM.”

      - Hadith, Bukhari, vol.9 # 58.

      And:

      “The blood of the muslim..cannot be shed except…(in the case of) the one who REVERTS FROM islam (apostate) and LEAVES the Muslims;

      - Hadith, Bukhari, vol.9, Bk.83, #17.

      These are among the fundamental, orthodox sunni sources that are the foundation of the capital punishment by DEATH for any muslim quitting islam. Your denying them or ignoring these hadiths does not change the fact that Islamic apostasy laws are not just used in wartime, but in normal times of non-warfare.

      Because islam is both state/political system/governance merged with religious beliefs. Influential sunni muslim cleric/ulama Qaradawi has overwhelmingly confirmed all this beyond a shadow of doubt! (unless you can show us that you are as influential or authoritative as qaradawi, no one is going to take what you say about these points seriously).

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
        These “claims” against apostasy of come from islam and are confirmed / affirmed overwhelmingly by Islamic scholars themselves. Al-Qaradawi affirmed that it was the Islamic apostasy laws enforced by sharia penal codes that preserved islam and ensured the survival of islam – from the earliest civil wars within islam and among muslims themselves – the Ridda wars. Just after Muhamed died, thousands of the muslim converts chose to abandon and leave islam. They were prevented from leaving islam and fought against by violent warfare by the caliph.
        Both the Koran, hadith, sunnah of Muhd all confirm this prevention of apostasy laws.
        And here’s where the Egyptian radical muslim ulama/cleric/”scholar”, al-Qaradawi publicly declares this in televised interview on Arab TV stations:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huMu8ihDlVA
        The above is somewhat inaccurate.

        Authority---Islam is not an "organized" religion like that of the Anglican Church or the Catholic Church. An "Authority"/Scholar is recognized on the basis of his/her scholarly credentials, and the respect he/she accrues from those who follow him/her. There are a few exceptions---some scholars are granted an office by the State (mufti, Qadi...etc). It is people who decide to whom they will give respect. As anyone who has studied Islamic history will tell you---the founders of the Pluralistic "Sharia" were rebels against the abuse of power by the State/Caliph. This is what earned them the respect of their followers....and NOT state authority.

        Ridda---a) Video---the video is not in English---the subs translate ridda as apostacy. As mentioned previously---this is a mistranslation of a non-english term. I previously gave a link to Dr Jonathan Brown who explained this---if you want another source then Prof Asma Afsaruddin also explains it....
        https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/...4.2008.9523339
        https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...falsenarrative

        Ridda---b) history.
        (dates are approx)
        622CE ---the Migration to Medina (Start of the Islamic calender)
        624CE ---Battle of Badr
        624CE ---Battle of Uhud
        627CE ---Battle of the Trench
        628CE ---Treaty of Hudaibiya
        630CE ---Surrender of Mecca
        632CE ---Abu Bakr elected as Caliph
        632-633CE---Ridda wars

        The above timeline mentions the Treaty of Hudaibiya which was a peace treaty between the Prophet/Medina and the Meccans. The Meccans broke this peace treaty and the Medinan army marched into Mecca and it surrendered.
        Such peace treaties were also made with the other tribes surrounding Medina. After the death of the Prophet (pbuh) these tribes broke the treaty conditions, and a few of these tribes not only broke the treaty conditions but declared their own Prophets. The solution to this mess lay on the shoulders of the newly appointed Caliph Abu Bakr. He swiftly mounted military campaigns and this restored peace in the region. This was a political choice made for the restoration of authority of the state....had the Caliph not chosen to do so...the Arabian peninsula would have broken up into warring tribes battling for power just as it was in pre-Islamic Arabia and the region would have fallen into poverty and bloodshed---because trade and agriculture need peace to flourish.

        The Germanic tribes and Frankish tribes also have a somewhat similar history of tribal warfare until they unite to form a larger group......
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths

        Comment


        • #64
          Correction---Battle of Uhud was approx 625CE

          ref--yr post #62
          There are 2 points that are interesting 1) Human free-will vs Divine power. 2) ahadith.

          1) Human free-will/Divine will
          The East has a concept of Ying/Yang in which 2 opposite forces are conceptualized as harmonious and synergistic. Human will and Divine will can be understood in a similar fashion although the value/power of the forces are vastly different. The power of the human will is entirely dependent on Divine will while Divine will is entirely independent.

          The formula that I use for Divine will = Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations. This is reinforced through the concept of Khalifa (Trusteeship) as explained in the Quran. Humanity has been given a Trust---that of the care of all of God's creations and with this responsibility comes a degree of authority/blessing---that of the intellect and free-will. This is explained in the Quranic story of Adam and the Angels---where the Angels have intellect but no free-will.... but humanity---represented by Adam---has both intellect and free-will. Why?---the answer is captured in a concept called "Ijtihad"---which translates as---the use of the intellect and reason to come up with creative solutions to problems.

          In order to fulfill the responsibility of Trusteeship---human beings need to understand God's will and after having understood it, to be willing to use their human free-will for the purpose of fulfilling Divine will/Trusteeship. This relationship between human will and Divine will is laid out at the start of Surah 2 of the Quran (as well as elsewhere) Quran verses 2 to 5 lay out the conditions of the heart and intellect, that a person needs, in order "to be Guided". First, the human heart and mind must be open to understanding Divine will and this requires an act of free-will.---if human beings reject to understand Divine will---then God also will not help them in their understanding of Divine will.
          ....to put it simply---God helps those who help themselves....and inversely---God refuses to help those who refuse to help themselves.

          1. Alif, Lam, Meem.

          2. This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

          3. Those who believe in the unseen, and perform the prayers, and give from what We have provided for them.

          4. And those who believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you, and are certain of the Hereafter.

          5. These are upon guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.

          6. As for those who disbelieve—it is the same for them, whether you have warned them, or have not warned them—they do not believe.

          7. God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. They will have a severe torment.

          As the underlined show---the human intent of belief/disbelief comes first---the consequences after.

          ahadith---prof Jonathan Brown has written a book called misquoting Muhammed which talks of the use and misuse of the hadith traditions. From the Muslim scholarly perspective, this tradition is a "science"---that is, there is a proper method of reading and understanding this tradition---and google is not one of them.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBlgMtgm5fQ

          Islam has always had a plurality of opinions and ahadith are no different---it is not about one definitive position---rather about a range. Ahadith are a collection of the saying of the Prophet....and depending on the situation/circumstances, hadith that seem contradictory also exist.

          Comment


          • #65
            Really? And why not Google, is it because as an efficient search engine it will show up the true realities of islam, the koran, muhd & his sunnah & sirah?

            Why don't you invent an 'islamic search engine' then, that only returns sanitised results in line with muslim dawaganda & islamic propoganda to promote your half-truths and inaccuracies for gullible non-muslims to be hoodwinked?

            For instance when one searches Google for the four orthodox schools of islam and the official legislations on Apostasy (quitting & leaving & abandoning Islam) you get:-

            "the classical legal texts, all surviving Islamic schools of law argue that the apostate should be put to death... In (Islamic) juristic literature, one finds claims of consensus among Muslims on the death penalty for apostasy."

            https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2011/04/3082/
            - Dr.Abdullah Saeed, professor of Arab and Islamic Studies, Uni. of Melbourne.

            So contemporary scholars, researchers and authorities on Islam and islamic studies at the highest levels, do confirm the death penalty prescribed beyond any shadow of doubt, upon any (male) ex-muslim who rejects and abandons islam. From the start of islam's invention by Muhamed until today, based upon the koran & sunna of Muhd itself.

            If an islamic scholar like this one confirms it, then you are just peddling propoganda when you try to deny the undeniable, siam.. What are your scholarly credentials compared to many scholars like him? Who admit honestly that the death penalty for apostasy IS INDEED prescribed by ALL SUNNI Schools of islam?

            Comment


            • #66
              Then when you search the Google search engine again, for stories of real ex-muslims (or "murtads") you will be upset to find all the true testimonies of the following flesh and blood human beings who WERE muslims, but chose to abandon islam, upon further intelligent and intellectual & critical investigation.

              Mind you, these are not a "dime a dozen" ex-muslims who rejected islam & converted to Christianity out of convenience! Like those who converted to islam from another (or none) religion, did!

              These muslim apostates ("traitors" or "treasoners"), fully aware of the official death penalty hanging over their heads prescribed by islamic sharia laws, STILL WENT AHEAD Boldly to abandon & reject islam.

              Surely, there is something more compelling to these brave converts to Christianity from islam, to cause them to dump islam! Despite the official sharia & islamic punishment of death (now Christians can convert to islam too, but there is no injunction OR institutional penalty of DEATH put upon their heads for doing so, making their kind of "conversion", 'a dime a dozen' & done out of convenience).

              1) Dr.Lamin Sanneh, ex-muslim turned Christian:-

              https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/all-...es-voice-south

              2) Sam Solomon, sharia kazi/qadhi or court judge in sunni Islam:-

              https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=koUgSqK9CwI

              3) Mosab Hassan Yousef, radical Sunni Muslim & son of one of the founders of the radical Islamist group, Hamas:-

              https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z7v3t1uYTyE

              4) Devoted Moroccan Islamist:-

              https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SuCYfa0HinM

              5) Dr.Nabeel Qureshi, fervent muslim propagandist from an islamic missionary family:-

              https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2bjv2t7PC7E

              These true stories & testimonies are simply awesome and inspiring. Try not to just glibly, but blindly, dismiss them and miss out on truly eye-opening and enlightening opportunities. With consequences for your well-being here as well as in the hereafter.

              Comment


              • #67
                Yr article link of Dr Abdulla Saeed---seems to be in support of my position---a) mistransalation of the concept of apostacy, (irtidad/riddad, murtad) b) No grounds in Quran, c) No grounds in ahadith/Sunna.
                Quotes from the article for the above points:-
                a) "Based on this reading of the hadith discussed above, opponents of the death penalty argue that even if there was a death penalty in early Islam for apostasy, it was because, at that time, apostasy was equivalent to the crime of treason. "

                "A number of todayÂ’s top Muslim scholars (for example, Muhammad Hashim Kamli, Hasan al-Turabi, Rashid Ghannouch, and Taha Jabir al-Alwani) argue that there is no evidence in the actual practice of the Prophet to suggest that he put anyone to death simply because of his or her conversion from Islam. Any association of the death penalty with apostasy in sayings attributed to the Prophet should therefore be interpreted in light of the socio-political context of the time."

                b)"First, the Quran, the most important text of Islam, does not specify any worldly punishment for apostasy, let alone death."

                c)"Second, there is no evidence to indicate that the Prophet Muhammad himself ever imposed the death penalty on any apostate for a simple act of conversion from Islam. If such evidence had existed, it would have provided the necessary prophetic authority to back the death penalty. On the contrary, however, one hadith in the collection of Bukhari (one of the most important collections of hadith for Sunni Muslims) details a man who came to Medina and converted to Islam. Shortly after his arrival, this man wanted to return to his former religion and asked the Prophet for permission to do so. The Prophet let him go free, without imposing the death penalty or, indeed, any punishment."

                If the misuse of apostacy laws in Modern nation-states is to be corrected---So that there is justice for all religions---then these arguments outlined in my posts are important.

                In the Quran---someone who leaves Islam/disbelieves is called Kaffir. The term as used in the Quran means "one who covers up the truth"---which implies one must first know the truth in order to cover it up---otherwise one is simply ignorant (jahiliya/jahala)
                As mentioned before---there is a whole surah (al-Kafirun) that clearly states "to you is your way and to me is mine".

                Hate and prejudice are wrong. If you recall Christian history, there were martyrs/people who clung to their Christianity despite being persecuted. This is also True of Islam---it is well known that the early converts to Islam were persecuted which is why they fled, first some went to present-day Ethiopia were the Christian kingdom of Aksum gave them assylum...and later to Yathrib/Medina.
                Today, despite hate and prejudice in some countries, Muslims still remain faithful to their faith. In some counties such as Burma, one can be killed by the Sate for being Muslim---in others such as India, mobs can lynch and kill Muslims for little or no reason.
                Hate crimes against Muslims also happen in the West:-

                Comment


                • #68
                  Not really & fully accurate either, the above. There certainly are verses in borh the Koran, hadith and sunna of Muhd that promote the death penalty for leaving, rejecting or abandoning islam. The Ridda - or Apostasy Wars are strong and early evidence that support this fact.

                  How else would these capital penalties could be institutionalized into all the "juristic definitions" with the force from ALL the four mazhabs, or schools of jurisprudence as valid & legally enforceable in all islamic states?

                  Muslims failed to "repeal", undo or even reform such inhumane, draconian & unjust punishments from the beginning of islam, 1400 years ago. What makes you think they will succeed to do it now?

                  The minority views has always been destroyed by sunni islam. Just look at the violent oppression of the shia by the sunni muslim "brethren".

                  Apostates from islam can only have their freedom to openly leave islam, and practise their new religious affiliation, when they flee from their muslim majority countries for the freedom ams safety of the western nations.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                    Not really & fully accurate either, the above. There certainly are verses in borh the Koran, hadith and sunna of Muhd that promote the death penalty for leaving, rejecting or abandoning islam. The Ridda - or Apostasy Wars are strong and early evidence that support this fact.

                    How else would these capital penalties could be institutionalized into all the "juristic definitions" with the force from ALL the four mazhabs, or schools of jurisprudence as valid & legally enforceable in all islamic states?
                    ...
                    To rephrase---How did the Arabic term "ridda" become translated into english as "apostacy"? ---because the term "national security" was not coined at that time?....
                    Words come with cultural baggage because words are tools of communication. For example, the concept word "Nabi" (messenger) is translated into English as "Prophet". But English is a language closely intertwined with Christianity and its concepts/worldview. It is not a neutral language with no baggage. In Christianity, the concept of "Prophet" is linked to foretelling the future/fortuneteller. (Prophecy) In Islam it is not. These terms become even more misleading when English translations of Arabic concept words are translated into a third language for example the title of Prophet in Japanese is translated as "Yogensha" which means one who predicts/tells the future. The more accurate term would have been "haitatsunin" or deliveryperson. The actual Arabic term means messenger/one who delivers a message (as it does in Hebrew/Judaism---Hebrew and Arabic are sister languages)

                    In order to understand "Ridda" one has to understand the political structure of the time of the Ridda wars as well as identity-formation. The pre-Islamic political structure was that of tribal groups. Belonging to a particular tribal group was the form of identity of a person. (In Modernity---the "Nation" is the tool of identity-formation). With Islam, this division into tribes was weakened by forming a "collective" (Ummah). When the Prophet went to Medina and formed a "State"---he made peace treaties with the other tribes around him. These tribes then joined the "Ummah" (The writer Karen Armstrong calls it the "supertribe"---but one could also call it a federation). At the time of joining the Ummah, these tribes also joined Islam. The reason for this is that in those days---to join a tribe meant adopting its customs and laws---which in this case meant Islam. (This is also the case today---for example the EU (European Union)...when one nation joins it---it needs to adopt to the laws and practices of the EU.)
                    The English term "Religion" also does not translate well. If we understand it as theology---then Christianity has a rich scope of material written on it. But both Judaism and Islam are religions of law not theology. The whole of Islamic theology can be summed up in 3 words---"God is one." But Islam has a rich scope of material written on philosophy of law/ethics/morality. The regulating of human relationships was what "Law" did in the form of rules and contracts---for example, marriage contracts, business contracts and peace treaties (contracts between nations/tribes). Modern nation-states have a division between secular law and religion---but Islam is a religion of law---it separates religion/law from state but it does not separate religion(principles of ethics/morality) from law. That is why the breaking of peace treaties with the "Ummah" (Federation), which was a matter of "law"---can be confused as a matter of "religion". An individual leaving Islam is vastly different matter from a nation/tribe breaking a peace treaty---because that brings war. Wartime laws differ from peacetime laws because the ramifications and consequences of the actions differ.

                    Mistranslations are not a big deal when discussions are general and broad---because translations cannot translate the cultural baggage and connotations attached to words. But mistranslations can become problematic when they lead to injustice by state policies or misunderstandings between groups and peoples. Especially when these mistranslations happen in third languages.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      נָבִיא nabiy - (Hebrew) prophet (unless the pre-monarchical חֹזֶה chozer (seer) applies)
                      As for the Japanese: 予言者 (yogensha) is indeed a hopeless rendering, but nowhere near as bad as 配達人 (haitatsunin) would be ... a prophet is neither a postman nor an employee of amex. The problem with translating προφητης (prophétés) to Japanese is that any near fit in native Japanese will imply a medium, divination, or astrology. However, a made up word 天啓家 tenkeika (divine oracle -ist) (or 天啓者 or 天啓人 perhaps) might fit the bill.

                      the concept of "Prophet" is linked to foretelling the future/fortuneteller.
                      Not so much, by dictionary definition ...
                      a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God. (google dictionary)
                      a person who is believed to have a special power that allows them to say what a god wishes to tell people, especially about things that will happen in the future: (Cambridge Dictionary)
                      A prophet is a person who is believed to be chosen by God to say the things that God wants to tell people. (Collins Dictionary)
                      : one who utters divinely inspired revelations (Websters)
                      When a Christian is talking about a Biblical or Christian prophet, he should be talking about the prophet as defined by the primary definitions - not the alternative definitions.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 02-23-2019, 04:40 AM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        נָבִיא nabiy - (Hebrew) prophet (unless the pre-monarchical חֹזֶה chozer (seer) applies)
                        As for the Japanese: 予言者 (yogensha) is indeed a hopeless rendering, but nowhere near as bad as 配達人 (haitatsunin) would be ... a prophet is neither a postman nor an employee of amex. The problem with translating προφητης (prophĂ©tĂ©s) to Japanese is that any near fit in native Japanese will imply a medium, divination, or astrology. However, a made up word 天啓家 tenkeika (divine oracle -ist) (or 天啓者 or 天啓人 perhaps) might fit the bill.

                        Not so much, by dictionary definition ...
                        a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God. (google dictionary)
                        a person who is believed to have a special power that allows them to say what a god wishes to tell people, especially about things that will happen in the future: (Cambridge Dictionary)
                        A prophet is a person who is believed to be chosen by God to say the things that God wants to tell people. (Collins Dictionary)
                        : one who utters divinely inspired revelations (Websters)
                        When a Christian is talking about a Biblical or Christian prophet, he should be talking about the prophet as defined by the primary definitions - not the alternative definitions.
                        I agree about the problem of translation---"Deliveryman" does not sound grand either in English or Japanese---and the Japanese language does have this wonderful adaptability of coining new words ---and so something more appropriate might work better. Yet, the Islamic tradition clarifies that the Quran is not "inspiration" as other scripture---but is a "dictation". This distinction is made because at that time---in the Arabian region there were people who were fortunetellers as well as poets who claimed to be "inspired". (The accusation by the people of that time that the Prophet was a fortuneteller or "inspired" poet is denied in the Quran.) In other words, the Quran is a letter from God to humanity and the Prophet(pbuh) is the one who delivers the message as received, without modification. Just as a postman delivers an unopened, unedited message from sender to receiver. However---this concept does not translate well into other languages. The dictionary definition is adequate for Christianity but does not accurately capture the relationship of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Quran as understood from the Islamic tradition. However that is true of any translation from one language to another when cultural baggage is attached to words/concepts/terms. Generally, the inadequacies and imperfections of translations are understood so its not a big deal.

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                        • #72
                          Below are the links to stories and testimonies of real muslim apostates - siam & muslims will regard them as "traitors" or "treasoners". They are fully aware of the official death penalty hanging over their heads prescribed by islamic sharia laws, but THEY STILL WENT AHEAD Boldly to abandon & reject islam.

                          Surely, there is something more compelling to these brave converts to Christianity from islam, to cause them to dump islam! Despite the official sharia & islamic punishment of death (now Christians can convert to islam too, but there is no injunction OR institutional penalty of DEATH put upon their heads for doing so, making their kind of "conversion", 'a dime a dozen' & done out of convenience).

                          1) Dr.Lamin Sanneh, ex-muslim turned Christian:-

                          https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/all-...es-voice-south

                          2) Sam Solomon, sharia kazi/qadhi or court judge in sunni Islam:-

                          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=koUgSqK9CwI

                          3) Mosab Hassan Yousef, radical Sunni Muslim & son of one of the founders of the radical Islamist group, Hamas:-

                          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z7v3t1uYTyE

                          4) Devoted Moroccan Islamist:-

                          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SuCYfa0HinM

                          5) Dr.Nabeel Qureshi, fervent muslim propagandist from an islamic missionary family:-

                          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2bjv2t7PC7E

                          These true stories & testimonies are simply awesome and inspiring.

                          Radical islamist scholar-leader Al-Qaradawi affirmed that it was the Islamic apostasy laws enforced by sharia penal codes that preserved islam and ensured the survival of islam over a thousand years.

                          So, these muslim converts who intelligently embraced Christ and turned away from islam are the really brave ones, daring to stand for the truth against the tyranny manifest in the Quran, muhamed & islam.

                          Kudos to them!

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                          • #73
                            Here's some significant news about a huge surge of Muslim converts to Christianity in the UK. And the first large Parsi service in the Anglican church recently:-

                            http://a.msn.com/01/en-gb/BBUiJvc?ocid=se

                            Good news, indeed, religious freedom for Muslims in the UK, but unfortunately not in their original muslim majority country.

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                            • #74
                              Here is the link to Dr.Lamin Sanneh's story and conversion out of islam into Christianity:-

                              https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/all-...es-voice-south

                              A scholar and writer - many years at Yale, its fascinating to learn his reasons for conversion to Christ.

                              The initial link was kind of broken.

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                              • #75
                                The Rise of Apostasy by Abdullah Sameer an ex-muslim is eye opening and also an honest appraisal. Watch carefully from the 15 minute mark, Yasir Kadhi's confession on how he was unable to handle his doubts in the Koran after going to Yale university in USA.

                                https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_-pYPWc26Gk

                                At least he is honest about it and that is commendable.

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