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    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Thoughts on the SBC and Abuse

    What can events in the SBC teach us about how men and women should relate?

    The link can be found here.

    -----

    What do I think of the recent issues going on? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    As someone who reads marriage blogs, I have seen several people writing about the events going on in the SBC. These issues have particularly centered around the treatment of women. The removal of Paige Patterson from his position is based on this kind of happening.

    Controversies surrounding him have included people like Sheri Klouda and Darrell Gilyard. There was also a statement released concerning other allegations from the chairman of the Board of Trustees. One great concern I had in reading that was that Patterson said he wanted to meet with a student alone who said she had been raped. He wanted no officials there and he wanted to "break her down." I'm not sure how to take that statement, but anyway I can think of is not good.

    Also, some of this centers around women in abusive relationships. Sometimes, women were apparently told to just submit to their husbands. This would often put those women in great risk.

    Patterson isn't an isolated figure in this. Steve Camp who was a popular Christian singer back in the 80's and today is a pastor got into a debate recently with Sheila Wray Gregoire of To Love, Honor, and Vacuum. In the link, you can see Camp made a number of awful statements because Gregoire is a woman and began blocking other women on Twitter defending her. I believe it's events like this that got J Parker of Hot, Holy, and Humorous to write her own take on this.

    So let's say a few words about all this going on.

    I am not a member of the SBC, but let's be sure that I do not think this represents the majority of SBC pastors and leaders. I think most of them want to be good and God-honoring men and if they are married, they want to love and honor their wives the best they can. Sadly, a few bad apples in any group can spoil the bunch.

    As regarding marriage, I am complementarian in my approach. Yet as I say that, I have something important to say along those lines. If a man does think Biblically that he is the king of his castle, well guess what. Your wife gets treated like a queen. There is never any justification whatsoever for abusing your wife verbally, physically, emotionally, sexually, or any other way I might have left off.

    I also hate divorce. When Allie and I go to another town around here for something else in the line of medical care, there is a billboard on the way back that says "Undo, I do." I always reach over and softly pat Allie on the leg or something and just tell her, "Not us." Because of a divorce culture where divorce is prevalent, though there are myths about how prevalent it is among Christians, there are many good marriages where one person fears a divorce from the other because it has become so easy to get one.

    Yet my hatred of divorce can be much like our hatred of war. No one really should really like the thought of war, but sometimes it is necessary because of the evil of other people. Many people who have a concealed carry today carry it to protect their family and I am sure it is their great hope that they never have to use it.

    Divorce is sadly a necessity if a spouse is abusive and they will not change. (While this is about women in abusive relationships, let's not forget that women can be abusers of men too.) I would urge any couple that when abuse takes place, separate for a time being and try to work things out with a licensed professional counselor. If that cannot happen, there is no requirement that you stay with someone who is abusive, doubly so if children are involved.

    Even still, divorce should be seen as a necessary tragedy. It is sad that someone who made a promise before God and man to love and cherish someone for the rest of their life ended up breaking that promise. It is a reminder that we live in a fallen world. We need to have zero tolerance for abuse.

    So what about Biblical submission? What about wives submit to your husbands. I believe in it, but men, if you have to start quoting Ephesians 5 to your wives in hopes that she will get in line, you're already not being a leader in your family. More importantly, when we are talking about someone's spiritual condition, the only person we can do anything about directly is ourselves.

    And men, we have a lot that is said to us in Ephesians 5. When I was engaged to my now wife, I remember once when I was visiting her and her family and one day it hit me that I was to be married really and then I remembered what the passage said. Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church.

    As Christ loved the church.

    Really.

    Look at those five words.

    Pause in your reading men if you're married and think about those five words.

    If we're being honest, we all fall short of that one. Yet that is our calling. We are to be such great husbands to our wives that if they didn't know better, they could swear they were married to Jesus. The number one person in your wife's life who should remind her of Jesus is you. If you are not that person, you are doing it wrong.

    Paul has many other commandments to us. To the wives, he only tells them to submit to their husbands and respect them. We get far more attention given to us.

    Submission is something that should never be used as a whip. Sex is always a big area in a marriage and guys, if you are using submission as a way to get sex, stop it. I suspect many of you are not doing that, but there could be that lone wolf out there. If it's not happening as often in your marriage as you'd like, then maybe you need to ask yourself how you could be more romantic so that your wife will feel safe and want to make love to you.

    Let me offer some bizarre suggestions. Maybe you could take your wife out on dates more. Maybe you could actually talk to her some. Maybe you could do some work around the house or help with the kids more. Maybe you could touch her lovingly and do so other than when you want sex. And maybe all of this could be part of loving her as Christ loved the church.

    Now to the women, many of them don't understand this need in a man, but imagine you wanting to hear your man say he loves you and he says, "Okay. I love you. Are you happy now?" Well, no. Of course not. It was done, but begrudgingly. The same would be if he took you out on a date and acted like it was just a chore for him. Unfortunately, many women don't realize that this is often how they come across to their husbands in the area of sex. It's a necessary evil that they put up with. Your man wants not just to have intimacy with you, but for you to want him and want that intimacy with him.

    Ideally in a marriage, this will begin a circle of love. A couple that is more loving will have more sex together. In turn, they will be more loving to one another. That will result in their having more sex together. As a result, you get the picture.

    And men, our role is to love our wives and always seek to improve. For me, I started a men's group on Facebook for Christian men who are married, engaged, dating, or hoping to date and marry called "As Christ Loved The Church". Honestly, part of this was for myself. I wanted to be a better husband and I was sure other men wanted to join me on that journey. Nowadays, I am seen by many as a sort of expert in the field, but I realize I have a long way to go.

    If any denomination has any issues with how men are treating women, they do need to clean house. By the way, a lot of this starts before marriage. The church needs to be teaching on sex far more often. Robert Gagnon, author of The Bible and Homosexual Practice has said we need at least one sermon a month. Think about it. Our kids in popular culture and all around them are seeing the world's view of sex everywhere. How often are they going to get the Biblical view? What are they growing up believing about marriage as a result?

    This also means that pornography must be talked about. This isn't just a men's issue anymore but if you're engaging in pornography, stop it. You are doing damage to yourself and any future marriage relationship you will have. This can be undone, but it would be best to avoid it to begin with.

    We should pray for the SBC in this time and hope the new president will build up the denomination to honor women to be sure, but even more that it will honor the name of Christ. Abuse in any relationship should never be allowed and definitely if you're dating someone who is abusive, get out now. Husbands and wives need both to seek to honor one another in marriage and definitely get rid of pornography.

    This scandal has given the world one viewpoint of how the church treats these issues. Let's make sure we give them a better one.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  2. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  3. #2
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    What can events in the SBC teach us about how men and women should relate?

    The link can be found here.

    -----

    What do I think of the recent issues going on? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    As someone who reads marriage blogs, I have seen several people writing about the events going on in the SBC. These issues have particularly centered around the treatment of women. The removal of Paige Patterson from his position is based on this kind of happening.

    Controversies surrounding him have included people like Sheri Klouda and Darrell Gilyard. There was also a statement released concerning other allegations from the chairman of the Board of Trustees. One great concern I had in reading that was that Patterson said he wanted to meet with a student alone who said she had been raped. He wanted no officials there and he wanted to "break her down." I'm not sure how to take that statement, but anyway I can think of is not good.

    Also, some of this centers around women in abusive relationships. Sometimes, women were apparently told to just submit to their husbands. This would often put those women in great risk.

    Patterson isn't an isolated figure in this. Steve Camp who was a popular Christian singer back in the 80's and today is a pastor got into a debate recently with Sheila Wray Gregoire of To Love, Honor, and Vacuum. In the link, you can see Camp made a number of awful statements because Gregoire is a woman and began blocking other women on Twitter defending her. I believe it's events like this that got J Parker of Hot, Holy, and Humorous to write her own take on this.

    So let's say a few words about all this going on.

    I am not a member of the SBC, but let's be sure that I do not think this represents the majority of SBC pastors and leaders. I think most of them want to be good and God-honoring men and if they are married, they want to love and honor their wives the best they can. Sadly, a few bad apples in any group can spoil the bunch.

    As regarding marriage, I am complementarian in my approach. Yet as I say that, I have something important to say along those lines. If a man does think Biblically that he is the king of his castle, well guess what. Your wife gets treated like a queen. There is never any justification whatsoever for abusing your wife verbally, physically, emotionally, sexually, or any other way I might have left off.

    I also hate divorce. When Allie and I go to another town around here for something else in the line of medical care, there is a billboard on the way back that says "Undo, I do." I always reach over and softly pat Allie on the leg or something and just tell her, "Not us." Because of a divorce culture where divorce is prevalent, though there are myths about how prevalent it is among Christians, there are many good marriages where one person fears a divorce from the other because it has become so easy to get one.

    Yet my hatred of divorce can be much like our hatred of war. No one really should really like the thought of war, but sometimes it is necessary because of the evil of other people. Many people who have a concealed carry today carry it to protect their family and I am sure it is their great hope that they never have to use it.

    Divorce is sadly a necessity if a spouse is abusive and they will not change. (While this is about women in abusive relationships, let's not forget that women can be abusers of men too.) I would urge any couple that when abuse takes place, separate for a time being and try to work things out with a licensed professional counselor. If that cannot happen, there is no requirement that you stay with someone who is abusive, doubly so if children are involved.

    Even still, divorce should be seen as a necessary tragedy. It is sad that someone who made a promise before God and man to love and cherish someone for the rest of their life ended up breaking that promise. It is a reminder that we live in a fallen world. We need to have zero tolerance for abuse.

    So what about Biblical submission? What about wives submit to your husbands. I believe in it, but men, if you have to start quoting Ephesians 5 to your wives in hopes that she will get in line, you're already not being a leader in your family. More importantly, when we are talking about someone's spiritual condition, the only person we can do anything about directly is ourselves.

    And men, we have a lot that is said to us in Ephesians 5. When I was engaged to my now wife, I remember once when I was visiting her and her family and one day it hit me that I was to be married really and then I remembered what the passage said. Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church.

    As Christ loved the church.

    Really.

    Look at those five words.

    Pause in your reading men if you're married and think about those five words.

    If we're being honest, we all fall short of that one. Yet that is our calling. We are to be such great husbands to our wives that if they didn't know better, they could swear they were married to Jesus. The number one person in your wife's life who should remind her of Jesus is you. If you are not that person, you are doing it wrong.

    Paul has many other commandments to us. To the wives, he only tells them to submit to their husbands and respect them. We get far more attention given to us.

    Submission is something that should never be used as a whip. Sex is always a big area in a marriage and guys, if you are using submission as a way to get sex, stop it. I suspect many of you are not doing that, but there could be that lone wolf out there. If it's not happening as often in your marriage as you'd like, then maybe you need to ask yourself how you could be more romantic so that your wife will feel safe and want to make love to you.

    Let me offer some bizarre suggestions. Maybe you could take your wife out on dates more. Maybe you could actually talk to her some. Maybe you could do some work around the house or help with the kids more. Maybe you could touch her lovingly and do so other than when you want sex. And maybe all of this could be part of loving her as Christ loved the church.

    Now to the women, many of them don't understand this need in a man, but imagine you wanting to hear your man say he loves you and he says, "Okay. I love you. Are you happy now?" Well, no. Of course not. It was done, but begrudgingly. The same would be if he took you out on a date and acted like it was just a chore for him. Unfortunately, many women don't realize that this is often how they come across to their husbands in the area of sex. It's a necessary evil that they put up with. Your man wants not just to have intimacy with you, but for you to want him and want that intimacy with him.

    Ideally in a marriage, this will begin a circle of love. A couple that is more loving will have more sex together. In turn, they will be more loving to one another. That will result in their having more sex together. As a result, you get the picture.

    And men, our role is to love our wives and always seek to improve. For me, I started a men's group on Facebook for Christian men who are married, engaged, dating, or hoping to date and marry called "As Christ Loved The Church". Honestly, part of this was for myself. I wanted to be a better husband and I was sure other men wanted to join me on that journey. Nowadays, I am seen by many as a sort of expert in the field, but I realize I have a long way to go.

    If any denomination has any issues with how men are treating women, they do need to clean house. By the way, a lot of this starts before marriage. The church needs to be teaching on sex far more often. Robert Gagnon, author of The Bible and Homosexual Practice has said we need at least one sermon a month. Think about it. Our kids in popular culture and all around them are seeing the world's view of sex everywhere. How often are they going to get the Biblical view? What are they growing up believing about marriage as a result?

    This also means that pornography must be talked about. This isn't just a men's issue anymore but if you're engaging in pornography, stop it. You are doing damage to yourself and any future marriage relationship you will have. This can be undone, but it would be best to avoid it to begin with.

    We should pray for the SBC in this time and hope the new president will build up the denomination to honor women to be sure, but even more that it will honor the name of Christ. Abuse in any relationship should never be allowed and definitely if you're dating someone who is abusive, get out now. Husbands and wives need both to seek to honor one another in marriage and definitely get rid of pornography.

    This scandal has given the world one viewpoint of how the church treats these issues. Let's make sure we give them a better one.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    Excellent, Nick.

    Nothing to add.

    (though I reserve the right to add something at a later date or time)

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  4. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
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    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    . . . So what about Biblical submission? What about wives submit to your husbands. I believe in it, but men, if you have to start quoting Ephesians 5 to your wives in hopes that she will get in line, you're already not being a leader in your family. . . .
    As I read that verse I find I cannot find the portion that says "husbands see to it that your wives submit to you." This 'command' is aimed at wives, not husbands.

    You done good, Nick.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  6. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    As I read that verse I find I cannot find the portion that says "husbands see to it that your wives submit to you." This 'command' is aimed at wives, not husbands.

    You done good, Nick.
    And I often hear it emphasized that we are commanded to love our wives, but no such command is given them. Sometimes (jokingly) I think it's cause we're less lovable.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And I often hear it emphasized that we are commanded to love our wives, but no such command is given them. Sometimes (jokingly) I think it's cause we're less lovable.
    Remember the joke about the man talking to God.

    Man: Lord. Why did you make my wife so beautiful?
    God: So you would love her son. So you would love her.
    Man: But why did you also make her so dumb?
    God: So she would love you son. So she would love you.

  9. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  10. #6
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    As I had stated elsewhere, I was unable to attend the Annual Meeting this year for the first time in ages.

    Supposedly, this year was going to be a major blowup over this issue, but I hear hardly a mention in the MSM.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Divorce is sadly a necessity if a spouse is abusive and they will not change
    How is this biblical??

    So what about Biblical submission? What about wives submit to your husbands. I believe in it, but men, if you have to start quoting Ephesians 5 to your wives in hopes that she will get in line, you're already not being a leader in your family.
    Wrong! It's good, also sometimes necessary, to give subordinates reminders of duties of theirs.
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

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    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    How is this biblical??



    Wrong! It's good, also sometimes necessary, to give subordinates reminders of duties of theirs.
    The commandment is given only to wives, period. Obedience is a matter between the wife and the Lord.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  13. #9
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    The commandment is given only to wives, period. Obedience is a matter between the wife and the Lord.
    Husband can still give reminder.

    'Children, obey parents of yours'. Is it just matter between them and God, no interference from parents?
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

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