What about those monks?

[peh2]

Recognizing a desire on the part of some believers to retreat from the world into a more prayerful atmosphere, I'm wondering about monks and nuns. Are they more spiritual than the rest of the earth-involved believers? Or are they selfish escapists who the rest of us half envy?

Does having a lot more hours a day to devote to prayer and "spiritual" exercises really lead one to more intimacy with God?

What do you think started the development of "religious communities"? (And where is the one I can join? :-))

[Jin-Roh]

From what little I've read about Church histroy, I'd say that Monastic life began just after the conversion of Constantine. When the age of Roman persecution was replaced with royal favor, Christians started getting "soft." Monks withdrew to the deserts and lived as hermits away from what was quickley becoming a cultural Christianity.

[Rev John Hansen]

Christians are to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" - not be hid away in some cave - like the Monks were. And it would be a good idea for them to get married, "Marriage is honourable in all..." (Hebrews 13:4)

[NeilUnreal]

I would only become a monk if I could join an order with a co-ed monastery...

-Neil

[spl_cadet]

Christians are to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" - not be hid away in some cave - like the Monks were.

1 Corinthians 12:29
All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

And it would be a good idea for them to get married, "Marriage is honourable in all..." (Hebrews 13:4)

1 Corinthians 7:7-8
Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

[Jin-Roh]

Christians are to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" - not be hid away in some cave - like the Monks were. And it would be a good idea for them to get married, "Marriage is honourable in all..." (Hebrews 13:4)

My apologies, but I don't think one can legitemently make a scriptural case against ascentism. Wasn't John the Baptist rather ascentic? Furthermore, I personally don't see how being a monk and being an evanglist are mutually exclusive, espiecally when you think about where education was in the middle ages.

[Jude3b]

The monastic system of Romanism is based on two false principles, namely, that celibacy is a holier state than matrimony, and that total withdrawal from the social intercourse and business life of the world is conducive to true religion.

In reality all phases of life, the secular as well as the ecclesiastical, is sacred. All are a part of God's plan, and to be lived under His blessing and to His glory. Whether in the church, or in science, politics, art, or the various professions, whether married and in the life of the family or in the single state, a Christian is to serve God not by withdrawing from the world but by going out into the world, ministering to the spiritual and physical needs of the people. Whatever ones work, a Christian is to perform it to the glory of God, and so have a part in the advancement of the kingdom of God.

[Jin-Roh]

Thus saith Jude3b...
The monastic system of Romanism is based on two false principles, namely, that celibacy is a holier state than matrimony, and that total withdrawal from the social intercourse and business life of the world is conducive to true religion.

Jude3b, based on the fact that you've overwhelmed the compartive religions forum with several unbacked assertions, I'd like you to support the statement you just made in this one.

[spl_cadet]

Actually, celibacy is considered to be holier.
CANON X (24th session of the Council of Trent)-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

Now then, Trent here is speaking of virginity and celibacy consecrated to God, not simple virginity or celibacy.

[rocketman]

My apologies, but I don't think one can legitemently make a scriptural case against ascentism. Wasn't John the Baptist rather ascentic? Furthermore, I personally don't see how being a monk and being an evanglist are mutually exclusive, espiecally when you think about where education was in the middle ages.

Quick note Jin...the word you're looking for is asceticism...no "n".

To Jude...
As for virginity being equal with marriage....you obviously need to re-read 1 Corinthians, chapter 7.

[Jude3b]

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife..." (I Tim. 3:2).

From the beginning, it has always been God's plan that men should have wives. "...the LORD God said, IT IS NOT GOOD THAT THE MAN SHOULD BE ALONE; (Gen. 2:18).

Perhaps if Romanism would obey the Word of God we wouldn't see the Pedophiles and Rapists in the Roman priesthood!

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[rocketman]

It should also be noted that from the beginning of the early church, that married men who became priests had to forego conjugation and that unmarried men who become priests could not marry afterwards.

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Let me pop in with a Jewish view if i may...

Judaism explicitly disavows monasticism and withdrawal from the general world as valid spiritual paths. We can cite many verses in the Tanakh to support our views. One of the more subtle is Psalm 34:12. THE KJV says:

Come, ye children, hearken unto me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord.

This translation, particularly the word Come, is wrong. In the original Hebrew, the word is Lekhu, which means Go, not Come. Thus, a better translation of the verse is:

Go, you children, hearken unto me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord.

King David is giving us sound spiritual advice. To have "fear of the Lord", we must go out into the world, not withdraw from it.

In I Kings 19, Elijah sought to commune with God in the solitude of Mt. Sinai. God asked him (twice) what he was doing there & then dismissed him.

We (orthodox) Jews see marriage (including the specific precept of recreational, as opposed to procreative, sex within marriage) as a positive good, enjoined on humanity by God Himself for our spiritual benefit. Our Sages teach that a person without a spouse has no joy, no blessings, and only an extremely limited potential for spiritual advancement. This applies to all people (rabbis included; especially rabbis), with no exceptions. We specifically reject celibacy as a defiance God's will and, therefore, evil and unnatural (although we acknowledge that some of our Christian brothers & sisters believe otherwise; I certainly mean no disrespect to such beliefs).

(BTW, in Jewish law, the High Priest could only officiate in the Temple on Yom Kippur, the holiest & most solemn day of our year, if he was living with his wife at the time, i.e. a divorced, widowed or single High Priest had to step aside & let his deputy officiate on this holy & awesome day.)

Our Sages advance various interpretations of the laws of one who takes a Nazirite vow (Numbers 6; BTW, we hold that the laws of the Nazirite are among those which are temporarily suspended until the rebuilding of the Temple & the advent of the messiah), especially on the fact that the Nazirite is, upon the conclusion of the period of his vows, specifically required to bring a sin offering. What constitutes his sin?

Our very great medieval sage, Maimonedes (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/bio...aimonides.html), writes:

Our Torah...advocates no mortification. Its intention was that man should follow nature, taking the middle road. He should eat his fill in moderation, drink in moderation. He should dwell amidst society in uprightness and faith and not in the deserts and mountains....Our Sages commanded man to deny himself only the things denied by the Torah. He should not inflict vows of abstinence on things permitted him...To such things King Solomon referred when he counselled: "Be not righteous overmuch; neither make yourself over wise; why should you destroy yourself?" (Ecclesiastes 7:16)

(Thus, the Nazirite's sin was allowing himself to deteriorate to a point where he had to deny himself things which the Torah permits.)

Be well!

ssv

[Solly]

Jude: The monastic system of Romanism is based on two false principles, namely, that celibacy is a holier state than matrimony, and that total withdrawal from the social intercourse and business life of the world is conducive to true religion.

Well, Kenneth Kirk in his magesterial Bampton lectures, The Vision of God, a survey of Christian teaching on holiness backs this up. The church developed the idea of two standards, a club class standard, for the monks and nuns, and economy class, for the rest of us. Monks were definitely holier than thou, and did for us what we didn't have the time to do for ourselves. Fortunately, there were people-movements that sprang up from time to time to over come this, such as the Waldensians, etc. It's part of the reason we have our laos/cleros divide even to this day, assuming that our leaders do all the holy stuff, and missionaries do all the hard graft, and we just get on with our lives, doing God a favour by turning up at church once a week. Jesus never proposed such a system, and even the Nazirite vow did not take people out of the world.
Fortunately, some of the monastic orders realised they had a duty to the world, and went out preaching, doing good works, establishing schools and hospitals, etc. but if you are a Cistercian on a vow of silence, you ain't gonna do much good are you. The hermits had a false view of the spirit/flesh struggle, having imbibed Greek neoPlatonist philosophy, since they were in Egypt after all. How they coped with accounts of jesus at parties i don't know. Probably didn't have the scriptures any way.

[Solly]

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife..." (I Tim. 3:2).

From the beginning, it has always been God's plan that men should have wives. "...the LORD God said, IT IS NOT GOOD THAT THE MAN SHOULD BE ALONE; (Gen. 2:18).

Perhaps if Romanism would obey the Word of God we wouldn't see the Pedophiles and Rapists in the Roman priesthood!

Sincerely, Jude 3b

And if protestants obeyed the word of God, we wouldn't have so many financial scandals, adulterers, heavy shepherding, cults, greed, etc.

What's good for the goose....