Originally posted by mossrose
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A Thought About Healthcare
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell - I too have family that lives in such a country, Sparko - and they love it. They also love that they can get a college education for their children without having to go into debt in six figures.
And, BTW, "expert testimony" is still only one person's experience. And example is not an argument.Last edited by rogue06; 06-16-2018, 08:15 PM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostLink to those statistics, please.
Because every person that I've ever talked to about it hates the system as it is. The media is constantly reporting on the horrendous wait times.
So, until you show me stats, I don't believe you.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have no problem with fining people for not securing healthcare under the policy."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWhat is being ignored is the number of Canuckistanis who come to the U.S. to get various operations and procedures taken care of because they really can't afford to wait and hope things haven't gotten progressively worse during the interim -- or even die.
And here's an article with actual numbers in it, since carpe doesn't like anecdotal accounts.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/63-000...tute-1.3486635
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostHaven't you figured it out by now? Dimbulb knows more about every country than the people who actually live there. He's a "citizen of the world", you know.
Yes. I keep hoping he develops a brain.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostIncluding former Newfie Premier Danny Williams, and many, many others.
And here's an article with actual numbers in it, since carpe doesn't like anecdotal accounts.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/63-000...tute-1.3486635
In interviews I have seen with Canadian medical professionals, they pretty much laughed at and mocked the idea that any significant number of Canadians go to the US for care. If anything it is by far the other way around: A lot of people living in the US get on a plane back to their home countries for free care if it turns out they need something significant done."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostHaven't you figured it out by now? Dimbulb knows more about every country than the people who actually live there. He's a "citizen of the world", you know.
I've also noticed that Americans tend to be quite insular, and tend to wrongly assume that people in other countries are as ignorant of America as Americans are of other countries, which is by and large not at all true."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIt's a sad indictment on your lack of education and massive ignorance of your own country that I so consistently know far more than you about your country, your laws, and your history.
I've also noticed that Americans tend to be quite insular, and tend to wrongly assume that people in other countries are as ignorant of America as Americans are of other countries, which is by and large not at all true."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Dimbulb View PostIt's a sad indictment on your lack of education and massive ignorance of your own country that I so consistently know far more than you about your country, your laws, and your history.
I've also noticed that Americans tend to be quite insular, and tend to wrongly assume that people in other countries are as ignorant of America as Americans are of other countries, which is by and large not at all true.
A classic example of Dunning-Kruger. Thanks for that.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThose are basically fake numbers as the professor quoted in the link says.
In interviews I have seen with Canadian medical professionals, they pretty much laughed at and mocked the idea that any significant number of Canadians go to the US for care. If anything it is by far the other way around: A lot of people living in the US get on a plane back to their home countries for free care if it turns out they need something significant done.
A link to your stats please, or links to the interviews you've seen where there are Canadians specifically leaving the States to come back and wait 10 months for a hip replacement.
Because I find that incredibly hard to believe.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSeveral years ago, Thomas Frank wrote a book called "What's the Matter with Kansas?" In the book, he asked a question: why is it that many of the poorest people in most of the most rural areas are continually voting against their own best financial interests?
So the question comes around yet again - why are these people consistently voting against their own self-interests? If hospitals had guaranteed payment through a single payer system, they would no long have to face the choice of shutting down or go bankrupt serving communities where a high percentage that cannot pay. Healthcare could stay close to the people who need it, in both rural and urban settings.
Any ideas...?Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostIt's nice that your cousins in Montreal have had good experiences with the healthcare system. However, as you said about my experiences, so what, who cares.
When you live in this country, or heaven forbid, if the US goes through with universal health care, then you can talk to me about it. When you have to wait 10 hours in the emerg to see a doctor, or 10 months to have hip surgery, or die waiting 3 months for urgent heart surgery, well, I guess it will be too late for us to talk then.
But - as you noted, examples are not arguments. You provided a lot of links to articles that are mostly about one study, and they conflict with other data that suggests widespread acceptance of and praise for the Canadian Healthcare system, and multiple studies that show that the acceptance level is higher than that in the U.S. So something is amiss. Since the studies I linked to are from multiple non-overlapping sources, and the links you provided my largely source to the same underlying study, I am inclined to suspect the broader studies are more accurate. I cannot say I know that for a fact. Do you have other studies besides the one? Do you have studies that deal with more than wait-time issues?
Originally posted by mossrose View PostSo go ahead and pooh-pooh the millions of Canadians who believe the system here stinks. Makes no difference to me. We're stuck with a mess. And I hope your cousins never, ever need speedy care.
Have you considered, Moss, the possibility that your experience is not the norm, and that you may now (possibly) be contributing to your own reality? I ask because I went to the hospital with my brother-in-law not too long ago. He is very right-leaning, very anti-ACA, and thinks healthcare in the U.S. sucks. I watched as he engaged with the hospital staff concerning his wife (my sister) and the dynamic was unbelievable. His facial expressions, tone of voice, and general attitude (not to mention specific things he said within their earshot) made it clear he had little but contempt for them and the entire system. My sister shares his views. Medical personnel are human beings too. Standing to the side, I could see the looks they were getting. At one point, as I was walking past the nurses station but was out-of-sight to the nurses there, I overheard a comment about them made by two of the nurses concerning their desire not to give them the best service and perhaps "tip a bedpan or two and return feces for feces" (that's a paraphrase...I'm assuming the actual word they said would be censored here). The charge nurse overheard them and came down on them pretty hard, but still - I have little doubt that my sister's care was not all it could have been, largely due to her attitude towards those caring for her. As a result, she walked out of that hospital with yet more horror stories of the medical establishment.
Sometimes, we create (or make worse) our own realities. Is that possible with you as well?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpeHave you considered, Moss, the possibility that your experience is not the norm, and that you may now (possibly) be contributing to your own reality?
No, my experience is not unusual. It is the norm. As always, you will believe whatever you want, in spite of evidence to the contrary.
And I really, really don't like your passive-aggressive behaviour.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThey couldn't afford health care previously and they still couldn't afford Obamacare (which for most cost even more[1] despite assurances that it was going to drop the price), so how does punishing them with heavy fines going to help. All it accomplishes is punishes the poor for being poor -- but I guess that'll teach 'em.
Of course, most of this will be moot after this year.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostOther governments can spend money on all sorts of social programs as long as they can count on Uncle Sugar defending them. Make them pay for for their own defense and they'll quickly find themselves low on funds to support such things or else sharply raising taxes on their people.
Originally posted by rogue06 View Post1. pretty much expected since it forces people to get coverage for things they will never, ever need -- like forcing old people, especially men, to get coverage for pregnancy for instance.
I have had experience now with two companies that went the "self-insured" route. They did so when the population of employees grew to over 100 employees. One was manufacturing and the other a professional services company. Both took a very intelligent approach. ALL non-elective medical procedures were covered. Employees were covered 100% for the first $1000 of expenses, then 80% for the next $10,000 of expenses, and 100% again thereafter. Employees contributed to the plan at an individual rate or a family rate, and the premium was way below what private insurance would cost. Because of the 100%/80%/100% mix, people found themselves actively trying to stay under $1000 in medical expenses because they would have no medical costs at all. But when they needed to, they got the medicines they needed. Nobody ever had more than $2,000 out of pocket in a given year for medical expenses. The companies saved an enormous amount of money on medical care.
The coverage document listed everything that was covered without question. It was one document for everyone. It never even crossed my mind to question that I was being covered for "pregnancy" when I had no hope of getting pregnant, or to complain that part of my premium was covering a condition I could never have. This entire "old men paying for pregnancy insurance" thing just amazes me. I guess it's an effective way to get old men to complain about something. It strikes me as yet another example of "how to get people to vote against their own best interests."
One universal policy that is used by everyone take less work to produce, vet, and simplifies everything down the line. It reduces administrative costs. So lets make an argument that we should micro fracture into dozens of policies tailored to specific things people might actually get. After all, sickle cell anemia is not really a white person disease, so why is it covered in white people insurance policies? And prostate cancer is not a female problem, so let's take that out of the women's policy. By the time we finish eliminating everything people can't get and tailoring policies by gender, race, ethnicity, age, and anything else we can think of as a distinguishing characteristic, I'm SURE we'll have a healthcare system with lower overhead!The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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